Rib solderng idea

[Scota4570]

I prefer to solder underribs rather than screwing them.  One vexing issue is that keeping everything in place, thimbles too, can be frustrating.  Normally I use a piece of drill rod to align the thimbles and wire everything in place.  The pre-tinned parts are all heated at once and hopefully it all goes well. 

I recently saw thimbles that were held in place with a tiny dovetail.  This intrigues me as a way to make soldering easier.  Also along the same idea, how about using stubby pins to keep the rib centered while heating? I was thinking of using double stick scotch tape to hold the rib while I drilled the pin holes.  The tape is really good for temporarily attaching a rib.  One pin under each thimble and one at the muzzle and fore end tip side.  If the pins are flared on the rib side they should be invisible later after dressing them down.  I would still use my drill rod and wire wrappings for insurance. 

This particular barrel is very thin and would be tricky to drill and tap.   

[B.Habermehl]

This is how I did the last half stock with a rib. I drilled and taped the thimbles and drilled the rib from the barrel side, with a counter bore for the screw heads. Then I fluxed and tinned the thimbles and rib. Then assembled the rib and thimbles. Heated them till the solder flowed, and snugged up the screws while the solder was molten. Then I tinned the bottom of the barrel. Then I clamped the rib and thimbles to the barrel with a light coating of flux. Heated the whole mess up till the solder flowed. Let it cool and done. The screws only purpose was to keep the thimbles from drifting while I was soldering. They are a permanent part of the assembly that Is invisible when properly done. Use cold blue to help you to see where you have solder to clean up. When the solder is gone from around your joints there will be only a fine silvery line showing. BJH
PS I used regular lead free plumbing solder and paste flux.

[Scota4570]

I nest the thimbles into the rib so that the concavity on the rib and the inside of the thimble are smooth.  I make a flat on the thimble and a mortise in the rib.   Unless the thimble was very think there would be no meat to put a thread in.  I must be missing something.

I also use plain lead solder.  Once it is tinned, with ordinary flux and a steel wool ball,  I wash the acid flux off and apply liquid rosin flux for the assembly heating. 

[shortbarrel]

I silver braze the thimbles to the rib and then soft solder the rib to the barrel. Sounds easy, but you got to have some holding jigs to do it. Thimbles can be brass or iron.

[P.W.Berkuta]

I silver braze the thimbles to the rib and then soft solder the rib to the barrel. Sounds easy, but you got to have some holding jigs to do it. Thimbles can be brass or iron.

This is what I do also -- I inlet the thimble into the rib channel use a small amount of silver braze to attach the thimble to the rib then soft solder the rib to the barrel with Stay-Brite solder - works great and no fear of thimble coming off or moving during rib attachment.

[Scota4570]

What do you-all use for silver braze?  I had some of the brownell's ribbon but ran out.  I am now using coin silver.  Coin silver does not wick like water upon melting though.  I also use the blue Bernzomatic rods.  A flux with powdered brazing rod might work better for this kind of thing.  

I see brownells does have a paste braze.  It costs $60 an ounce!  I see my grubby old quarter is worth about $2.75.  Maybe I'll try making some filings and add the to flux in the joint then heat it.  60-bucks ??

[Daryl]

With hard (high heat) silver soldering, bright red heat is usually required. Scaling inside the bore & warping of the barrel is highly possible/probable.

 Silver brazing is not needed on under ribs. I'm quite sure Taylor uses low temp silver, ie: 4 or 5% silver - probably labeled lead-free.  Brownells Force 44 is another and is used by many gun smiths.

Thus, low temp solder is all that is needed.

The Brits and Germans, for many years and still do, use soft solder, for soldering ribs to double rifles and shotguns. High temp silver (ie: silver brazing) is not needed, imho.

For silver soldering (high heat silver) the thimbles to the ribs, silver wire can be purchased from most welding shops for around $10.00 to $20.00 per inch.

[Scota4570]

I had no intentions of silver brazing the rib.  I have rosin core lead solder for that.  The brazing was for the thimbles.

My local welding shop had no idea what I was talking about when I asked for silver braze or real high temp silver solder. They wanted to sell me silver bearing soft solder.  I get that most of the time these days.  We are among the few who have knowledge, skills, and interest in making anything.  It is rare for me to find anyone at a hardware store or industrial supply who has product knowledge.  My local Junior college scrapped the machine shop about 15 years ago, just destroyed those beautiful machines.  It seems knowing how to make things is being discouraged.  If a kid is interested they have to work hard to find anyone to help them.  Many trades people are not even Americans anymore, at least in California.  Rant over....

Anyway, silver solder is how much an inch?? The silver solder alloys are silver, copper, zinc, tin, and sometimes cadmium.  None of these are particularly expensive.   It seems 10X, or more expensive, than it should be.  Remember the melt value of my old quarter is only $2.75.  Any idea why it is so expensive?   

[red owl]

I've soldered thimbles to rib using the 430 degree lead free solder. Then I've screwed the rib to the barrel. Next time I want to do all PC.  I think lead melts at around 700 so I was thinking to use lead on the thimbles and then the lead free 430 degree (tin?) for rib to barrel.
I use a drill rod on the thimbles and plate the surfaces and then hold all in place and reheat until the thimbles slightly move and rest into mortises.
   Flat on the thimbles and mortise on rib- so smooth even surface from groove in rib through thimble.

[heinz]

I would suggest using 60/40 lead tin solder. This has the lowest melting point of the lead tin solders an I believe it is stronger than a pure lead joint. Also very historically correct

[LRB]

  Lead melts at 625°. Brownells Silvaloy 355 silver braze Flows at around 1200°, and wicks very well on tight or close fits. One problem I see is that if the thimble was brazed on the rib, and needed replacing for some reason, the heat needed to remove and replace  would cause a large portion, if not all of the rib to have to be re-soldered. 60-40 lead solder melts at about 370/375°. One could use Staybrite for the rib, melts at about 430°, and 60-40 with the thimbles. Just my thoughts. 60-40 used to be popular in stained glass soldering.

[P.W.Berkuta]

What do you-all use for silver braze?  I had some of the brownell's ribbon but ran out.  I am now using coin silver.  Coin silver does not wick like water upon melting though.  I also use the blue Bernzomatic rods.  A flux with powdered brazing rod might work better for this kind of thing.  

I see brownells does have a paste braze.  It costs $60 an ounce!  I see my grubby old quarter is worth about $2.75.  Maybe I'll try making some filings and add the to flux in the joint then heat it.  60-bucks ??

My father was a welder and gave me 1 pound of the 1/16” Eutectic Silver Brazing Rod & 1 pound of 3/32” Eutectic Silver Brazing Rod. I removed the flux from the 1/16” rod and use a paste flux on small jobs. It is a high heat silver braze – 1200 to 1400 degrees. If your welding supply guy does not know of this product then Iwould go to someone else because he sure does not know his stuff. See information below.
http://www.airgas.com/p/EUTX1020XFC1625
1/16" Castolin Eutectic® EutecRod® 1020 XFC Silver Brazing Rod 5 1/2# --- $673.51 /LB - Pound

[BartSr]

I would suggest using 60/40 lead tin solder. This has the lowest melting point of the lead tin solders an I believe it is stronger than a pure lead joint. Also very historically correct

Actually 63/37 lead/tin solder flows easier.  Electronics called it Eutectic.

[Bob Roller]

I had no intentions of silver brazing the rib.  I have rosin core lead solder for that.  The brazing was for the thimbles.

My local welding shop had no idea what I was talking about when I asked for silver braze or real high temp silver solder. They wanted to sell me silver bearing soft solder.  I get that most of the time these days.  We are among the few who have knowledge, skills, and interest in making anything.  It is rare for me to find anyone at a hardware store or industrial supply who has product knowledge.  My local Junior college scrapped the machine shop about 15 years ago, just destroyed those beautiful machines.  It seems knowing how to make things is being discouraged.  If a kid is interested they have to work hard to find anyone to help them.  Many trades people are not even Americans anymore, at least in California.  Rant over....

Anyway, silver solder is how much an inch?? The silver solder alloys are silver, copper, zinc, tin, and sometimes cadmium.  None of these are particularly expensive.   It seems 10X, or more expensive, than it should be.  Remember the melt value of my old quarter is only $2.75.  Any idea why it is so expensive?   

What you described is the dumbing down of America and maybe Canada as well.Called a hardware store recently and they finally found an employee that knew what a 6" wheel for a bench grinder was. If you want to
have a bit of fun,ask for a metric crescent wrench. Few know the difference between emery cloth and paper.
I ran into that this week at an industrial supply store. We had a trades schools here in Huntington,WV and I inquired about the airplane engines and machine shop equipment and was told they were all junked. Old and still serviceable South Bend lathes and a variety of milling machines,Index,Bridgeport,Clausing etc,destroyed.
Same for precision measuring tools. The name of the game is indoctrination. Education? Who knows.

Bob Roller

[WadePatton]

My local welding shop had no idea what I was talking about when I asked for silver braze or real high temp silver solder. ...

There are many dozens of good men and a few women using 56% Silver solder bicycles every day in this country/world.  That is how I built my road bike.  That's how Richard Sachs* (a pal of mine) builds every single one of his bikes.  It's the dominant filler material for lugged bicycle construction which has made a comeback in hand-made bicycles. Lugged frames used to dominate the market and go back to the beginning of the 2-wheeled vehicle.  

I probably have 5 silver alloys in the shop and two or three brass, but I usually leave the discussion of soldering alone here at ALR as I have very little experience with the low-temp stuff.

Specialty markets, like this one, and the custom bike one-keep traditions alive.  Embrace them.  (Bob Roller, there be a whole bunch of old and ancient lathes and mills, etc. rescued from their last days of production work now being employed by the bike makers-where they'll give decades more service.)

*Richie doing it to it: (because I've lost the photos of me doing it)



We now return you to your regularly scheduled gunbuilding.

[red owl]

On the higher heat type solders. I once soldered the thimbles to the rib and as it cooled I think it slightly warped.  Prior to the job I had a really good fit between rib and barrel but after the job there was an area slightly off- I could slide a sheet of paper in the gap- not very noticeable but there.
   On the originals- did they use different solders? Tin on the thimbles and lead on the rib?