Question about Getz Barrels

[robrmcc]

New to the forum, this is my first post.

I have purchased a Ron Ehlert made 40 calibre Vincent Rifle.  Beautifully engraved  little rifle, made around the 1980's I believe, rarely used it seems.  It has a Getz barrel with button rifling.  Does anyone have any experience they can impart in terms of working up a load for this barrel?  I have had some success with a 0.395 ball and 15 thou patches with wonder lube, but it does not seem to me to have reached the accuracy level it should.  I have not slugged the barrel to see what the exact dimenions are.  The button rifling seems relatively deep to me, thinking maybe I have to go up to a 18 thou pillow ticking patch.  I have an older flintlock 45 calibre with I think a Douglas barrel and cut rifling that out shoots the Vincent and I think maybe the Getz should be a better barrel.  

Just as a side note I am up in years and requiring reading glasses and have converted the Vincent over to Skinner peep sights with a great deal of success.  I can shoot with no glasses at all and get relatively good sight pictures.  Intend on installing one of his Lo-Pro peeps on the tang of my flintlock as well.  Made shooting a whole lot of fun again.

Any suggestions regarding that Getz barrel would be appreciated.  

Rob McC

[rich pierce]

Just wondering why you say it has button rifling.  I did not know Don used button rifling.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

As far as I know, neither Don or John 'button' rifle their barrels...all are cut rifled.  Some have radius'd grooves and some square, but all are cut rifled.  My personal load for 40 cal. of which I have two, and one of which is a Getz barrel, is .395" soft lead ball, .020" denim patch lubed with either spit or my own concoction, and 65 gr. fffg GOEX.  Both of these rifles shoot cloverleaf five shot groups from the bench at 50 yards. with this load.  I use a short starter to start the ball 8" into the muzzle, and the 5/16" hickory rod to finish loading.

Give it a try...what's to lose?

[robrmcc]

I reveal my own ignorance when I said button rifling.  I always thought that referred to round bottom grooves.  See I was mistaken on that account.  They are round bottom groove on this barrel in any event so it sounds like what you are describing.  Currently it seemed I was getting better accuracy with lower loads, 35-40 grains of FFF, with a 15 thou patch.  Possible that I need a thicker, tighter patch to prevent blowing out the patch with a higher load?  I have gathered up some patches and they look a bit worse for wear.  Barrel is nicely crowned but I have been thinking of softening that up a bit too in case the patches are getting cut.

Thanks,

Rob McC

[bob in the woods]

I have a Colerain barrel on my .40, and it has 12 thou. round grooves I know that the larger bores have .016 grooves, but the .40's and smaller use the .012   My load for accuracy is almost the same as Taylor's, so I would suggest that your ball /patch combo is too small. 

[smylee grouch]

Recover your shot patches and look them over. I would go with more powder and thicker patch in order to fill up those round groves and some windage in your barrel.

[robrmcc]

Well I have some pictures of patches but can't figure out how to put a picture with the post.  I think everything is pointing towards thicker patch though.  WIll have to wait till next spring likely though.  Winter seems to be here at last.

Thanks,

Rob McC

[Gene Carrell]

I shoot several 40cals with a variety of barrels. All shoot well using 0.395 rb, 0.018 pillow tick, various lubes and 45-60gr 3Fg powder.

[JBJ]

My .40 Rice barrel is quite happy with a .395 soft lead ball, .018 to .020 patch, 60 grains FFFG Goes, and spit or Mink Oil. Before the Rice, another .40 rifle (with a Douglas barrel)  also digested 60 grains of FFFG Goex, but with a .401 ball and a .015 patch with spit. Wish I had that .401 Lyman mold today!
J.B.

[smallpatch]

What Taylor said.  .395 ball, min. .020 patch, 65g FFFg .= tack driver.  Shoot all day.

[Daryl]

I of course, concur with Taylor & Bob along with all of the other accuracy shooters.

When he first built the .40, Taylor was using around 45gr. 3F and even with that charge, he was difficult to beat. That was because he used to shoot that rifle offhand as well or better than anyone else could if benching it.  He's increased his charge now and is near impossible to beat - if shooting that little Kuntz .40, with the Getz barrel.

Heavies charges certainly demand thicker patches - that is a given fact, BUT - thicker patches and heavier loads do indeed shoot more accurately than light charges & especially light charges with weak patches. That would translate to 3 levels of accuracy.  Thick patches and light charges shoots better than light charges and thin patches. Anything actually thinner than about .018" or .019" compressed measure, are too thin in my opinion, when using balls that are .005" smaller than the bore size.

Usually, if one has a rifle that shoots better with 30, 40, or even 45gr. than it does with heavier loads, it is due to that person using too thin a patch. The thin patch does not maintain it's integrity with the heavier pressures generated by the heavier charges.  This gives fliers and poor overall shooting.  The heavier charges thus cannot show their superiority.

[bgf]

My GM .40 shoots .395 and either 10 oz. bull denim, .020 Teflon or .027" art canvas with 50-65 grains 3f.  When I first got it, it would blow patching that my .50's shot fine.  I attribute that to the higher pressure in smaller calibers, but the thicker, tougher patches are the way to go anyway and I use them on my .50s as well most of the time.

[Daryl]

My GM .40 shoots .395 and either 10 oz. bull denim, .020 Teflon or .027" art canvas with 50-65 grains 3f.  When I first got it, it would blow patching that my .50's shot fine.  I attribute that to the higher pressure in smaller calibers, but the thicker, tougher patches are the way to go anyway and I use them on my .50s as well most of the time.

exactly

[robrmcc]

Well that seems to all be making sense.  I am using a 0.445 ball with a 10 thou lubricated patch in my flintlock, which I think has a Douglas barrel and it delivers very nice groups on the bench.  But a similar combo with the Getz 40 calibre does not seem to work well at all.  So next spring I will try the tighter patch combo.  Is a 0.395 ball with a 0.027 patch pretty hard to load though?  That would compress the cloth to 5 thou on the lands.  Seems aggressive.

What is the concensus on whether the grooves need to be sealed with the patch here?  I have read both ways.  Common sense tells me if the grooves are not sealed the gases blowing by will burn the patch out, but others seem to say no to that.

Rob McC

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Rob:  you need to seal the bore, and that means the grooves.  If the grooves are sealed, the lands obviously are taken care of right off the bat.  A .010" patch is useless...might as well not use a patch at all.  No matter how tight the combo is, once it is in the muzzle, it is the same size as the bore, and can be sent to the charge with a hickory rod with relative ease.  Getting it into the bore is the trick, if that's the word.  So a nicely radius'd crown and a smooth bore are essential, and the use of a starter will just make that job a lot easier.

[bgf]

...

 Is a 0.395 ball with a 0.027 patch pretty hard to load though?  That would compress the cloth to 5 thou on the lands.  Seems aggressive.

What is the concensus on whether the grooves need to be sealed with the patch here?  I have read both ways.  Common sense tells me if the grooves are not sealed the gases blowing by will burn the patch out, but others seem to say no to that.

Rob McC

It can be loaded with short starter only, but my hands are a mess of numbness, so I use a rubber mallet to seat ball most of the time.  Once started, they all load easily with a range rod, except the Teflon which must be cleaned out between shots after a couple.  The bull denim is fine with a wooden rod and some care, assuming a good short starter.

I'm not strong on theory, but I look at spent patches obsessively.  The less singing the better!  Anything more than a slight darkening is potential trouble.  The .40 is a chunk gun, so everything matters.  I guess too thick a patch could be damaged on loading, but never seen that.  It would depend on the material.  If it means anything, I am considering .400 balls for this barrel in the future.

[Daryl]

bgf - I used .400" in my .40 Goodeoin barrel, with .019", .0225" (10 ounce denim) and the heavy ticking I measured at .0235". 

It shot well with all patches due to the compression in the bottom of the grooves, if 1/2" to .6" for 5 shots at 50 yards rest is "shot well".

Yes - short starter, but the rifle's 3/8" hickory rod was all that was needed to seat them down onto the powder.  Powder charge with LHV and Hoppe's 9 Plus was 65gr. 3F GOEX or 75gr. 2f GOEX - same accuracy no difficulties loaded for the entire day's shooting on the trail or at the range - no wiping while shooting.

[Vomitus]

  I have a Rice .40 barrel @44inches swamped. I just posted this to say that accurate loads are possible with lower charges. I shoot 50grains of Goex 2F with a 20 thou. patch and a .395 RB. 

[Levy]

I stopped by and talked to Hoppy Hopkins of H&H barrels concerning what you needed to do to get accuracy with his round bottom rifling and his reply was to start with a bore size ball.  I assumed that after that, you adjust your patching by trial and error.  At that time, he and Mike Bell were doing pretty good at shoots.

James Levy

[bgf]

bgf - I used .400" in my .40 Goodeoin barrel, with .019", .0225" (10 ounce denim) and the heavy ticking I measured at .0235". 

It shot well with all patches due to the compression in the bottom of the grooves, if 1/2" to .6" for 5 shots at 50 yards rest is "shot well".

Yes - short starter, but the rifle's 3/8" hickory rod was all that was needed to seat them down onto the powder.  Powder charge with LHV and Hoppe's 9 Plus was 65gr. 3F GOEX or 75gr. 2f GOEX - same accuracy no difficulties loaded for the entire day's shooting on the trail or at the range - no wiping while shooting.

Just to clarify, I used seat in the sense of starting/swaging to the bore at the muzzle.  Once that is done, the long leg of the starter pushes it down a few inches, then the ramrod is used the rest of the way down.  The ramrod portion is easy with the exception of Teflon, which must have a clean bore to load easily.  I wipe with the denim and canvas patches when shooting chunk because it seems to make a slight improvement in accuracy,  but either patch will load easily without wiping also, as long as I want to shoot.

I will say that if I shoot long enough without wiping that I sometimes have to give the ball a smack to get it down on top of the powder, because a ring builds up, but that is not typical.

[robrmcc]

Think I got it this time.  Sorry for the previous posts



Rob McC

[Daryl]

Patching too thin and/or too weak, or both.
Also, your crown is cutting the patch sometimes when you load. It needs about 2 minutes of work.

[robrmcc]

Thanks, confirmed what I was already thinking about them.  Darn, now I have to wait till spring to try out these suggestions.  Unless by some miracle we get some warm days in November.

Rob McC

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Last winter, except for some - 20 C in December, the temperature hovered at just below freezing all winter.  I got out to the range more last winter than anytime previous.  I hope this winter is the same - got lots of shooting I want to do.

[robrmcc]

Actually I did get out over Christmas this year.  Weather got up to -18C I think, very unusual for us.  But a friend of mine and I managed to get out for an afternoon and do some shooting with a really neat old hunting rifle circa around 1870 we think, 577 calibre based on Enfield military hardware.  He gave it to me as a very mistreated wall piece someone had that had been varathaned and the hardware painted black.  I restored it back to it's original finishes and found a very nice piece that had rarely been fired.  So we banged off 20 or 30 rounds in that and had a lot of fun.  Good shooter and the Minie ball was way easier on the hands to load in the cold then patch and ball.  KIcks pretty good though.  Rest of the winter was just too cold to enjoy any shooting.  Have been lucky this year to be shooting right to the end of October.  Something to look forward to in spring though I guess.

Rob McC