Deringer barrel finish

[L. Akers]

Hello folks, I'm new to this forum thing but I've been a hobby gun builder for 50 years with 30-some builds under my belt.

In the book [iSteel Canvas [ a Deringer pistol is shown with their "special streaked finish" on the barrel.  The finish is a brown with red-orange streaks that look like paint was drizzled on the barrel as it was rotated.  I have seen one for real at the Fraizer Historical Museum in Louisvile, Ky.--it's not paint.  Any one know how they accomplished that finish?

[Mike Brooks]

It's an alloy forged into the barrel  during manufacture.

[L. Akers]

Thanks Mike.  That was my first thought but something I read somewhere gave me the impression it was done artificially to simulate a welded barrel.  Anyway, I thought that if I could do it myself it would look good on a target pistol.

Larry

[JCKelly]

With respect, that "red orange" is copper plate. Nothing is forged into the wrought iron used by Mr. D. for his pistol barrels. They were indeed wrought iron, and not steel.

Details are in someone's book somewhere, but it involves copper plating. This does not have to be electroplating. I think the "browning" solution Mr. D. used would have been acidic, with some copper sulfate in it.

Decades ago Dad bought Mom had a matched pair of Deringers with that beautiful finish on them. No, I never got ahold of them.

One may inadvertently get some copper plating by not precisely following directions using Laurel Mountain browning solution.

I do not know how to do a good job, such as on a Deringer, deliberately.

God only made two metals with natural color. One, copper, is red. The other is gold.
The rest of the metals are white, at various degrees of brightness. Any color on them is a surface matter, such as oxidation (temper colors, bluing and browning), carbonate (old brass or copper patina), sulfate &c.

[Jerry V Lape]

I asked this question once of a professor of metallurgy specializing in metal finishing.  He was a firearms hobbyist too.  He said it was done with a copper solution and the pattern was achieved by masking off the  various portions with applied wax to prevent the various colors from bleeding into the others.  But other than that I have no personal knowledge. 

[L. Akers]

Looking at my library collection I noticed an OLD book of formulae and found a selenious acid solution that will turn copper a whole range of colors depending on length of exposure to the solution.  One of those colors is orange--Hmmmm.  Think I'll experiment can I get ahold of some acid.  Thanks for all your inputs.

[Captchee]

It's an alloy forged into the barrel  during manufacture.

 For some time I thought the same thing mike .
After seeing a couple that had worn  back , I now believe it to be a finish of some type.
 The one example I held many years ago , had what  appeared to be a rather thick  finish to the barrel .  Only way I could describe it would be something like a powder coat  but not  really that thick .
I  have experimented with  oxides  and copper solution and you can just about get any color you can think of  to apear . but I never was able to achieve any semblance of what Derringer was doing.  For that mater the durability .
 I also never achieved the thickness with the oxides or the  randomness of how the patterns appear  

[Mike Brooks]

Well I learn new things all the time here. I've seen piles of these things and handled many of them at Rock Island Auction and they sure look like a forged in element. Obviously not I guess.

[Jerry V Lape]

Hmmm, Selenious acid?   Is that a compound of Selinium?  I wouldn't be interested in playing with that stuff if I recall my chemistry classes.  Selenium can be absorb through the skin, breathed in or orally.  Results are not good.  Full clothing an respirator required. 

[Mike Brooks]

Full clothing an respirator required.

Yep, I'll bet they suited up before they went to work every day.....

[T*O*F]

Selenium can be absorb through the skin, breathed in or orally.  Results are not good.  Full clothing an respirator required.

All of the cold blue finishes are selenium based.  How many people do you figure have gotten sick from using them and not even using gloves, let alone respirators.

[bob in the woods]

We'll never know 

[Jerry V Lape]

TOF, Really all of the cold blue finishes?  I just checked my container of Brownell's Oxy pho and sure enough selenious acid among the ingredients.  That will be something I will certainly not use in an enclosed space.  Probably just use it on the upwind side on days with a good steady breeze since I don't have a ventilated hazardous fumes work closet.  Thanks for the heads up. 

What about the rust browning solutions, any of it there? 

[JCKelly]

Henry Deringer's Pocket Pistol, John E. Parsons  1952 -
On page 185 as part of a lawsuit (Deringer won) Schlotterbeck said:

"The browning or streaking on the barrel is a mere imitation of a twist. When I first went there he had not the same colouring he afterwards used. I improved it myself assisted by another man there. It is made by a solution of muriatic acid (hydrochloric acid) and zinc, I added to it copper. because it had a redder color, and we put it on and boil it in hot water. Deringer, when he saw it, liked it and directed us to use it afterwards. There was no secret about it at all. It had been used in Baltimore before then. The whole solution consists of muriatic acid, aqua-fortis (real nitric acid, not the currently used stock stain with iron in it) and copper."

This book does not describe how the copper plate was applied in streaks. But it was copper plate.
If you wish to do this, I suggest you read some old stuff on copper plating without electricity. Old electric wire is as pure a copper as you can get.

Wear a face shield. This stuff, if it splashes a bit, is @!*% hard on one's vision.

[L. Akers]

Thank you JC this sounds a lot more doable.  Thanks for the cautions but I had enough chemistry in college to be very respectful.
.

[Captchee]

 There are several different companies which  offer metal Patinas, Dyes and Oxides  some that have very little to no chemical  base .

  As I stated earlier , I had at one time experimented  with  oxides  and could not achieve the same results as what I has seen on some of Derringers works .

 Let me clarify that by saying , this would be concerning early muzzle loading  works  where a blue , red and even yellow  color was added to a browned or blued finished barrel .Not to be confused with a heavy Fuax Damascus pattern often seen on shotguns and some pistols of the mid 19th  and early 20th  century
 
 Now most certainly this could be do to the process being different  then what Derringer  used .  However they do  make it possible to apply  copper and bronze onto a metal surface without electroplating or  the uses of acids or mercury .
 
Myself I did not find  the patinas to hold up well for firearms applications . Dyes and oxides however did not do to bad . In fact I still have a  test  barrel which I applied a  yellow and blue Dye oxide to produce a pattern steel  . that’s been Maybe 10 years now . The pattern and color  is still  visible where as the barrel that I applied the patina to  has long since sloughed its colors

 This is  pistol carries a brown and red patina over  copper rub .  Its pretty hard to see any color in the photo . It is there .  .  I was able to achieve what I felt was the proper thickness . However I could not produce a quality , sharp pattern  nor was there any durability  with actual use .



 Now  on this example I applied Dye-oxide to barrel steel . This was  with 2 coats of each . No attempt was made to recreate  an accurate pattern.  This was simply a test to see how  the oxide would build and contrast .. The blue was applied then  using a brush I simply randomly removed the blue with solvent . Then applied the yellow .
 This  was one of the last oxide pattern tests I did . Its also  one of the ones that’s held up quite well . It however did not produce the results I was looking for and  thus was not repeated .



Anyway , good luck in your search  in recreating the derringer patterns.