N. Beyer Signature

[MKemper]

I have an opportunity to acquire an original flintlock rifle with the name N. Beyer is bold script on the top of the oct. to round barrel.  It is not a typical Nicholas Beyer rifle, but may be one of his earlier works.  Does anyone have a photo showing the N. Beyer signature that is associated with "the Nicholas Beyer?"

[Hurricane ( of Virginia)]

Suggest looking in Chandlers Volume one of Patchboxes and Barrel Signatures. I recall several guns with "copied" signatures along with a picture of the corresponding buttstock, patchbox.

[MKemper]

Hurricane, the subject rifle is built as a "very" slimmed down Brown Bess.  At first glance one would think it is a fowler, but it is rifled.  It is definitely a very early piece and the signature shows the appropriate wear.  It is my understanding that many of the golden age makers made variations of the European arms (including the BB) in their earlier years.  Where might I find the referenced book by Chandler?

[JTR]

Here's a couple out of Chandlers books.
I've seen several Beyer sigs that look like the first one, ie, sometimes difficult to read on the barrel.
All seen to be deeply engraved.
John

[tom patton]

You might want to look at "Thoughts on the Kentucky Rifle in its Golden Age" by Joe Kindig Jr. for several examples of Beyer's work.
Tom Patton

[MKemper]

JTR, thank you for sharing the photos.  Do either of these represent authentic Beyer signatures?  The signature on the gun I am considering matches the upper example.

[Hurricane ( of Virginia)]

There is a similar rifle. a definite Beyer,  to the one you described in the Library/ Museum on this site. Perhaps a look there will help. Also if you buy it, we only accept guns provided by the guns owner, we would be happy to exhibit in the library. Others would then see it , learn and comment.
Thanks
Hurricane

[JTR]

Yes both sigs are copies of authentic Beyer sigs.
I had a Beyer in my hands just two day ago with his name signed as in the upper example.

Not to dampen your enthusiasm, but a signed barrel only proves the maker signed That barrel. Before laying out your hard earned cash, be sure the rest of the rifle is appropriate for the maker, and that the rifle isn't a re-stock by someone else. 

If you could post some pictures of the rifle, there are several people here that could provide a reasonable degree of assurance that the rifle is a Beyer, or possibly not.

John

[jwh1947]

Bingo, this thread is bringing forth the truth.  The signatures shown on the thread are good likenesses of the correct inscription.  Moreover, Beyer cut it in deeply and, as we like to say, proudly, though I have no true idea how proud he was of his work.  Here's a guy who worked in the late golden age who still  made a gun the right way, like his masters, with some body in the right places.

Beyer's carving was excellent and quite "dutchified" for Kentucky rifles.  Lots of rifles avoided an emphasis on the local Pa-German folk-art motifs and symbols, simply because they saw the pure Rococo (a la Thomas Chippendale, Palace of Versailles, etc.) as more urbane and sophisticated.

You need to know that I am 100% Pa-Dutch by genetic makeup and have been immersed (sometimes by force) into the culture.  Keep in mind that the "English" of the 1800's in our parts (including both Quakers, churched Brits, and Scotch-Irish) all looked down on Pa-Germans as "Dumb Dutch."  We still use the term as a moniker of affection, sort of like the N-word on "The Wire."

Bottom line, Beyer rifles have certain distinctions.  Here's two items that would be supporting points in an attribution.  Are there three pins holding in the muzzle cap?  There usually are.   Are there three chips in the beaver tails?  There usually are.  As stated, a good Beyer signature tells me that I am looking at  Beyer barrel, nothing more.  Hate to say it, but lots of signed barrels have been married to entirely spurious counterfeit wood.   You had darn well better know what you are dealing with, and there is no alternative to heavy experience with originals and study.   I would need to see the whole gun, but would have a conclusion formed probably after 5 seconds.  Beyers are that distinct, and there are quite a few around, relative to other makers.  He was prolific and good at what he did.  JWHeckert

 

[jwh1947]

Guy stopped in the shop today to have a new barrel put in his 1911A1 GI .45.  Said he saw this thread about the Beyer signature.  I was sharpening my plain square graver at that moment.  He asked how long it would take to apply "N. Beyer" to a gun barrel in a likeness to an original.  My response was, "While I never inscribed "N. Beyer" to a barrel, it takes me about 10 minutes to pound out  J. W. Heckert."  Haven't a clue how to age it, but probably my cat-urine-based, non-OSHA approved, secret formula will come through as usual. 

[jwh1947]

Upper example is like my Beyer.  On closer review, bottom looks suspect.  Mine is deep.  It's the one pictured in my book and in the annals of the Lebanon Co. Historical Society. 

[MKemper]

jwh1947, as mentioned in my earlier posts, the subject rifle is a "sporting rifle" with oct. to round rifled barrel (very petite and slim).  The muzzle cap is attached with three rivets.  The signature looks right and there is wear typical to signatures typically seen on 200 year old rifles.  My question:  What are some distinguishing characteristics of the flintlock on the Beyer rifles.  This one looks "very" hand made with forged frizzen spring, etc. 

[jwh1947]

The locks vary.  I've seen "Germanic" style locks as well as ones from Birmingham makers on Beyer rifles.  Mine is a M.M. Maslin small flint, which fits the mortise like a glove.   If I recall, he was listed in Baltimore and Phila. as a lockmaker only.  I am also aware that knock-offs of this lock were cranked out in the 1960's, but I've had this one apart and it is real.
 

Incidentally, my humble opinion is that, out of the lock, stock and barrel, the lock is the least important piece.  Springs broke; frizzens wore out; cocks snapped off. Locks and lock parts were commonly replaced.  It has been reported that longhunters sometimes had an extra lock built for their rifle and carried it in their possibles bag.  If you were 100 miles into the woods hunting for pelts, etc. and your lock broke, you were screwed.   With the spare, you were still in business.

I've read and heard folk wisdom from the old timers that some hunters resisted the new percussion technology in favor of the older flintlock.  There is always conservative resistance to any change, but some shooters still argue that ignition time differences are negligible and that you can't start a campfire with a percussion lock, while any schoolboy who is starting to get cold can figure out how to use his flintlock to start a fire.  Fordney, for instance, was apparently making flints along side of percussions right up to his gruesome encounter with John Haggerty.     

[JTR]

MKemper,
Is there any carving on the rifle?
Beyers' carving is very distinctive, and would help to confirm.
Also, the name should be deeply engraved on the barrel.
As mentioned, the lock won't really help much to prove or disprove Beyer as the maker.
As I mentioned back at the start, pictures would help.
John