Sett Trigger Conundrum

[JCurtiss]

Well, I "screwed the pooch" on this one (it's a southern saying).  I changed from a "conventional" trigger pinned in the stock to a double sett trigger more or less at the last minute of my gun building project.

Big mistake.

At this stage of my build there simply is not enough wood left to install a sett trigger.  I need more distance between the trigger bar and the sear in order to cock the darn thing without having the sett trigger set. To gain more clearance I could cut down the trigger bar to ~0.125" thick, which would make the bar too flimsy in my mind. Or, I could scab on an 0.188" piece of wood to the stock, not really a viable option either.

So in order to cock the hammer, I will now have to set the trigger, which is potentially dangerous.  Also, it means that I can only shoot the rifle with the sett trigger set--darn!

Does anyone have a solution to this botched sett trigger conundrum?

Thanks!

Jason

[Dennis Glazener]

File as much as you can off the trigger bar and bend the sear bar up for the rest.
Dennis

[Mark Elliott]

Dennis' advise is good.   I have done both before.   Actually,  I have usually had to do both to get both triggers operating the sear properly.   If your problem is the rear trigger pressing on the sear bar too much, as opposed to not letting the sear cycle, then you have another option.    Presently,  I prefer to put a limiting screw under the rear trigger spring to take pressure off the sear.    This allows for easy, perfect, adjustment of the rear trigger travel.   You can adjust the tension on the rear trigger such that it is only just enough to kick the sear out of the full cock notch.   The sear spring is what takes the slack out of the rear trigger when it is unset.   I just add another adjustment screw to my set triggers when I build them.   I use Davis kits.   You do have to take care of the placement to go either in front or behind the back of the trigger guard bow.    In any case,  it is just another option for you.   It take minutes to do and saves me all manner of aggravation.   

[JCurtiss]

Thank you for the suggestions there Mark and Dennis.

The sear bar on my Davis Sett Trigger appears to be flame hardened.  So if I start cutting or grinding on it, I'll cut right through the hardened portion of the bar.  In order to re-harden the bar, should I heat until it turns red and then plunge in 10 weight oil, or water, or???

Mark, if I've interpreted your suggestion correctly, I may simply need to reduce the spring tension on my rear trigger bar.  Perhaps instead of drilling, tapping and installing a screw I could simply install a spacer washer under the rear trigger spring where it is screwed to the trigger plate. Would this not have the same effect as your screw pushing up on the spring? And I could vary the spring tension by adding or subtracting washers?  My trigger bar may need a more radical adjustment, but I'm certainly going to check out your suggestion!

Jason

[Mark Elliott]

The washers might work, but you will have to remove more wood to make room for them.   I really think the screw is much less impact.   As to the trigger bar being case hardened, I doubt it.   I am pretty sure it is through hardened.   That is how I heat treat them and that is how the finished product would come from Davis.   Just grind it down, if that is what you want to do, without heating it past blue.
   

[JCurtiss]

The washers might work, but you will have to remove more wood to make room for them.   I really think the screw is much less impact.   As to the trigger bar being case hardened, I doubt it.   I am pretty sure it is through hardened.   That is how I heat treat them and that is how the finished product would come from Davis.   Just grind it down, if that is what you want to do, without heating it past blue.
    

Mark,

Well I ground about 0.125" off the trigger bar and got everything to work as it should!

However, it seems that I ground through surface hardening and have exposed soft metal on the trigger bar.  The reason I say this is because the first 0.020" or so of material was difficult to grind away, but after that it seemed easy to remove material. So how do I get the hardness back?  Should I heat until red and then quench in water or ...?

[smylee grouch]

Did you grind any from the engagement point? How hot did the engagement point get when you were grinding?

[JCurtiss]

I took material off the whole length of the trigger bar.  I was using a belt sander and have no idea how hot the bar got, as I was wearing gloves to isolate the heat from my pinkies.

[Ky-Flinter]

JC,

It's a little late now, but for the future when grinding something that is hardened, have a cup of water nearby.  Grind a little so the part doesn't get very hot, dunk in the water to cool, repeat until you've removed the desired amount.

I grind without gloves so I can feel the part warming up.

-Ron

[Mark Elliott]

The washers might work, but you will have to remove more wood to make room for them.   I really think the screw is much less impact.   As to the trigger bar being case hardened, I doubt it.   I am pretty sure it is through hardened.   That is how I heat treat them and that is how the finished product would come from Davis.   Just grind it down, if that is what you want to do, without heating it past blue.
    

Mark,

Well I ground about 0.125" off the trigger bar and got everything to work as it should!

However, it seems that I ground through surface hardening and have exposed soft metal on the trigger bar.  The reason I say this is because the first 0.020" or so of material was difficult to grind away, but after that it seemed easy to remove material. So how do I get the hardness back?  Should I heat until red and then quench in water or ...?

You must have overheated the trigger grinding.   I have never seen a Davis part come case hardened.    In any case,  heat evenly to a salmon color and quench in quench oil or other light oil (10-20W motor oil will do).   Then you have to temper the part to 30 minutes at 560-590F.    I do the temper in a heat treat oven.    I guess you could draw the bar to a bright blue.    Just make sure you heat from the trigger shoe to make sure that is soft.

[Bob Roller]

File as much as you can off the trigger bar and bend the sear bar up for the rest.
Dennis

Try measuring before cutting and avoid this hassle.Also,on my locks the sear is 0-1 so bend at your own risk and expense.Once the barrel is in the wood it's not hard to calculate the position of the lock and the full cock
position of the sear.Measure the height of the trigger in the assembled condition and you'll have an idea as to what goes where and why.

Bob Roller

[Don Stith]

Maybe I am just easily confused. When you guys refer to the trigger bar, do you mean the piece that the triggers and springs attach to or the upper portion of the triggers that hit the sear arm?

[bob in the woods]

I learned a long time ago, that paper and pencil is cheap and  helps eliminate these kinds of problems.  I always start with a drawing. 

[JCurtiss]

Maybe I am just easily confused. When you guys refer to the trigger bar, do you mean the piece that the triggers and springs attach to or the upper portion of the triggers that hit the sear arm?

When I refer to the trigger bar its that area of the sett trigger that thumps into the sear. 

[JCurtiss]

I learned a long time ago, that paper and pencil is cheap and  helps eliminate these kinds of problems.  I always start with a drawing. 

I agree, but I was beyond the "layout" stage when I decided to install the sett trigger.  My lock was already inletted and the stock area where the trigger mounts was already shaped. So I was merely gambling that the sett trigger geometry would work with the way my rifled was configured. 

As it turns out, removing some material from the trigger bar made the lock and triggers perform perfectly.  UNLESS I accidentally annealed the trigger bar when I used a belt sander to adjust the height.   

[Joe S.]

Maybe I am just easily confused. When you guys refer to the trigger bar, do you mean the piece that the triggers and springs attach to or the upper portion of the triggers that hit the sear arm?

Don I think they are talking about the part that engages the sear.Sounds like the problem I had with the L&R trigger set,I too had to file a lot off to get them to work.Just pressing mine into the inlett hit the sear.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Set triggers, as they arrive at your door, are cast or machined to be too large for the job, thankfully.  They are meant to be reduced to make work properly.  L & R's Hawken set allows for an enormous variation of lock and trigger combinations.  Some locks, when the hammer is cocked, drop the sear bar right down to the bottom edge of the lock plate, while others only drop to within 3/16", or 1/4" or 5/16" or whatever.  That is why the triggers are left large...fit them to your application.

[Bob Roller]

Maybe I am just easily confused. When you guys refer to the trigger bar, do you mean the piece that the triggers and springs attach to or the upper portion of the triggers that hit the sear arm?

When I refer to the trigger bar its that area of the sett trigger that thumps into the sear. 

If the area where the triggers lock together to "set" then it's OK. If not,it's not too critical.
I have yet to see any set triggers on an American rifle that were hardened and they still worked
100 years later.Fancy,multi lever European types are another thing altogether because a lot of
them were made by watch makers that had no concern for any frontier type guns of any kind.

Bob Roller

[greybeard]

 I make my own set triggers with a working height if 1/2 inch. You can see that I  had to relieve the kicker bar and recase harden. I also filed a bit off the toe of the main spring to lower the bar a bit further allowing the gun to be cocked with the trigger unset      Bob