Author Topic: Graver Sharpening question  (Read 6073 times)

Offline Bill Ebner

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Graver Sharpening question
« on: December 07, 2015, 08:25:51 PM »
 I know that the Lindsay sharpening system is highly recommended, but I'm wondering if there are any" home made " jigs or techniques that are used by the builders on this Forum. And expanding on that and in the spirit of How Did They Do That, what would have been traditionally done in the gunshops of early America. How do the gunsmiths at Colonial Williamsburg sharpen Gravers?

Thanks,

Bill

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Graver Sharpening question
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2015, 09:07:20 PM »
 Forget those sharpening jigs and get either Jack Brooks engraving video, or Wallace Gustlers video, and learn how the old guys did it.

    Hungry Horse

Offline dogcatcher

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Re: Graver Sharpening question
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2015, 10:06:53 PM »
I got most of my info out of Art of Engraving by James Meeks.   Best price I found was at Brownells.   Second best source was Googling images of "graver sharpening jigs".  The studying each one of the pictures that interested me.  Another version that I found later was this one.  http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=12121.0

The more you read the less you will be obsessed with exact angles, before all of the "modern" improvements the gravers were sharpened by hand and eye, with experience it becomes easier.  Like in horseshoes and grenades, getting close to the angle you want will work, may not be perfect, but it works.  This is one I came up with, a knock off of the GRS system.     http://bitsandspurs.freeforums.org/homemade-graver-sharpening-jig-t2709.html

Offline JTR

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Re: Graver Sharpening question
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2015, 10:24:49 PM »
From my experience, one of the major hurtles in learning to engrave was learning to Properly sharpen the tool.
 
I found out a long time ago that I enjoy engraving a lot more than sharpening, so I bought what was offered back then as a tool holder for sharpening. I think it was called a Crocker, or something like that. It wasn't great, but it worked. Plus it was pretty cheap. After learning how to operate the tool, I found I was spending about 95% of time engraving and 5% sharpening, instead of the other way around!
Once you learn to engrave, touching up by hand is pretty easy. Learning how to sharpen by hand, while learning to engrave was an exercise in frustration for me.

John
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Graver Sharpening question
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2015, 10:53:23 PM »
Get Lyntton Mac Kenzie's video.
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Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Nordnecker

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Re: Graver Sharpening question
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2015, 12:04:22 AM »
I'm really glad this thread came up. These are good links. I've been struggling/ wanting to engrave for a long time, since before I started building long rifles. I have Meeks' book and have seen Jack Brooks' video, but haven't gotten anywhere.   :-\ I've gotten frustrated with "How-to's" I think I need someone to tell me what NOT to do, like, "No, Don't do it THAT way! No, Don't start it there! STOP! Your angles' all wrong. You're striking too hard, Don't……
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Offline bama

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Re: Graver Sharpening question
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2015, 12:07:50 AM »
If you know what a sharp graver looks and feels like then you will know how to sharpen it. You don't need any of the "holders" persay to be able to sharpen a graver. If you know what you are looking for you can sharpen by hand.

I have taken several engraving classes. One from Wallace, one from Mark Silver, a couple of GRS classes and I spent a week with Sam Alfono.

From all this I learned that you cannot engrave until you learn to sharpen and I also learned that all of these instructors sharpen differently.

When I first started trying to engrave I started with Meeks book which has a lot of good info but I struggled with trying to sharpen the way he explains how to sharpen. After struggling for about 3 years I decided to take the beginners class from GRS.  It was the best money I ever invested. The first thing I learned was how to sharpen a 90 degree square graver. I was also introduced to their Dual Angle Shapening fixture. With this fixture I could consistantly sharpen a graver. With this fixture you can shapen many different types of gravers, the square graver in varying degree cuts, 90 to 120 degree being the common ones. Flat gravers, round and many custom gravers that you will develope as you gain experience.

I also invested in the Lindsay Universal Sharpening Template. This template gives a 116 degree V graver with what Steve calls a paralel heel. This is a different heel than the standard heel that is commonly made on a standard heeled square graver.
You get no heel drag with the paralel heel.

In Mark Silver's class he taught to sharpen a 90 degree square with the standard heel.

In Wallace's class he also taught to sharpen the same as Mark but I noticed that his graver was sharpened similar to Steve's Lindsay's Paralel heeled graver. Wallace also shapened this graver by hand with no tool holder. He would just lean the graver against the bench and touch up the heel with a good stone.

Now Walace had developed his graver to suit him and how he engraved which was well suited to hammer and chisel engraving.

Somehow you have to gain the knowledge that is needed to understand what I have stated here. Not trying to belittle anyone. You can every graver sharpener out there but if you don't know what you are looking for in a sharp graver then you just have a collection on graver sharperens.

The best information out there on graver sharpening is Sam Alfono's CD on graver sharpening. It is worth the money, he covers all the common types of gravers and how to sharpen them. He uses the GRS dual angle sharpening fixture. He does not cover the Linsay template.

I found that I enjoyed engraving much more once I gained the knowledge of what a sharp graver was. Now with that said I am still learning to engrave and developing my skill, I am in no way an expert. I do know you will never cut a good or straight line with a dull or improperly sharpened graver. :o

Jim Parker

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Offline jerrywh

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Re: Graver Sharpening question
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2015, 01:19:24 AM »
 When you ask how they did it 250 years ago in America there is no one answer. In the first place  almost all of the Gun makers then were amateur engravers and likely didn't know much more about it than you do.  It's not so much how you achieve it as it is the outcome. First you must learn what the correct geometry for a square graver is before you can reproduce that shape of a tool.  I have probably read and watched every book and video on sharpening there is and the best way to do it without a template is like Lynton McKenzie explains in his video.    The book [The art of engraving} is good but for some reason is hard for most people to understand and was for me also. The
  For very advanced professional engravers the geometries are numerous and complex.
 Lindsay templates make it simple to get the geometry and it would probably pay someone like yourself to buy one just to learn from.
  By the way you can get what is called heal drag from any geometry if the heal is too long.
 The best advice I can give you is : do not take advise from amateur engravers. There are some very good engravers on this site and a lot of not so good.
PS. just learn a standard 90° first. forget the others till you learn that.
 
  
« Last Edit: December 08, 2015, 01:23:18 AM by jerrywh »
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Offline T*O*F

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Re: Graver Sharpening question
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2015, 01:21:32 AM »
Quote
I know that the Lindsay sharpening system is highly recommended,
They are nice, but you need a separate template for each grind.  With the GRS dual angle sharpener, you can sharpen anything as Bama says, but you can also replicate all the Lindsay grinds with it if you know the angles.
Dave Kanger

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ricktull

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Re: Graver Sharpening question
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2015, 02:56:42 AM »
I agree with Hungry Horse. I got the Gusler dvd, he does it by hand using the stone like a file with the graver in a nick in a board. It just takes a while to get the feel of it, just like engraving!

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Graver Sharpening question
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2015, 04:03:22 AM »
 I intentionally didn't mention the Hershel House video.  Because, I knew those gadget collectors here, would freak at how little special equipment old Hershel uses to get the job done.

     Hungry Horse

Offline hudson

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Re: Graver Sharpening question
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2015, 06:00:35 PM »
A second vote for Lyntton Mac Kenzie's video. Three are three, the first covers sharpening and some basics if I remember correctly. I believe they are still available from Brownells.

Offline smart dog

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Re: Graver Sharpening question
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2015, 07:57:23 PM »
Hi Bill,
I assume you are using a chisel graver with a hammer.  Use stones at least 6" long and 2-2.5" wide.  I prefer ceramics.  Also cut a 5/8" diameter metal rod about 6" long.  Hold your square chisel graver at about 45 degrees to the stone and polish the face.  Then put the rod on one edge of the stone, lay the chisel on its side with one face to be sharpened for the heel flat against the rod, and the tip of the chisel against the stone about 1/4" from the other side of the stone. Rub sideways along the stone keeping the graver against the rod, which will create the right angle.  Just stroke a few times to create the heel or facet on that side of the graver, then turn it over and repeat on the other side. You can do a pretty good job that way.  I don't mess with it anymore.  I just use Lindsay's templates.

dave
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Offline oldtravler61

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Re: Graver Sharpening question
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2015, 08:43:36 PM »
Hungry Horse.  Herchel makes everything look easy. A lot of basic tools a nac for making it all look easy. His videos and talking to him makes you feel like you can accomplish anything you want. He is a true master. IMHO

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Graver Sharpening question
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2015, 05:30:38 AM »
 Very few engravers who sharpen chisels off hand that is without any kind of a fixture or system could ever do any real fine engraving. This is not to say they can not do a very good job on the type of engraving that is on a long rifle. It is just not possible with the crude gravers they produce. Fine engraving requires some very precision tools. Fine engraving as defined as equal to a portrait. Long rifle engravers of old were very crude even the best of them. There were some fantastic engravers in the USA  in the late 1700's or at least by 1810. Some of them worked for the American banknote co. and at least on one occasion engraved presentation pistols.
 Most of the real good engravers worked as book illustrators and some of them were just young kids. Look at some of the illustrated  books from that period if you get a chance. Those guys put the long rifle engravers to shame.
  A good book to read is the jewelry engravers manual. That book has some good info on sharpening also and it is cheap.
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Offline Bill Ebner

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Re: Graver Sharpening question
« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2015, 09:49:36 PM »
 Thank you all for your answers to my question. Sorry that it took so long for me to respond. I appreciate the level of knowledge that is on this forum and the willingness to share.  I will try tracking down a copy of Lynton McKenzies video; but the only rental source I found has it back ordered. I'm certainly not ruling out the Lindsay jigs, but just thought I pursue other options first.

Thanks and have a Merry Christmas!

Offline PPatch

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Re: Graver Sharpening question
« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2015, 10:42:37 PM »
For the McKenzie engraving videos try this outfit, you can rent the videos:

https://smartflix.com/store/video/457/Engraving

I have used them and they are prompt and I have had good results with them. Look around the site as there are quite a few vid's relating to gun building.

dave
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