Brass barrels, what is the story?

[Captchee]

 so judging by that photo and the distance between pipes , the barrel was what 39-42 inchs . that section of the barrel also seems rather small . maybe something in 24 to 28 bore ?
 could possible just be the comparison next the  hundson valley though .

[James Rogers]

Good observation on the entry swell and lack of extra carving. IIRC, many of the "British styled" guns in Grinslade that had swells also had recognizable  carving around the TG and entry and the later ones tended to lack both? I wonder how reliable entry swell on American made fowling guns might be in defining a date period to a specific gun. That is without a sample grouping of similar pieces within an area of course. If not for the wooden rib (which of course could be later), I might have initially wondered of manufacture further south.

[Eric Kettenburg]

Good to see the additional photos, I didn't realize it was one of the the extremely rare and elusive 'round the corner' guns. 

IMHO as has already been posted, imported components stocked here w/ a piece of maple.  I may not be NY.  I have seen a number of pieces along these lines (sans brass barrel) which are generally attributed to the area along the Deleware from @ Phila up through Trenton and towards Easton.   But honestly, it's of such a generic form that it probably could have been made anywhere.

[rich pierce]

so judging by that photo and the distance between pipes , the barrel was what 39-42 inchs . that section of the barrel also seems rather small . maybe something in 24 to 28 bore ?
 could possible just be the comparison next the  hundson valley though .

I think about a 20 ga barrel. Just guessing. I'd have noticed if it was really small.

[Acer Saccharum]

A few more of same Schoharie gun:

Note the horn nose cap looks unscarred, while entry pipe is all bashed up at the leading edge. Forestock moulding stops abruptly at cap, but looks like it was designed for a longer, full?, forestock.

[rich pierce]

Nice, thanks, looks full stock originally.

[Tim Crosby]

 Were is this gun, maybe I missed that part.

   Thanks, Tim

[Acer Saccharum]

I always thought brass is an inferior metal for pressure vessels. But as said above, there are so many alloys that look like brass, but are actually bronze. I have seen old brass just crumble and crack. Cartridge shells, trigger guards, etc. I would not want MY face next to a brass barrel.

[Acer Saccharum]

The gun in the above photos is in the 'Old Stone Fort Museum', in Schoharie, NY. This is a pretty simple museum, but loaded with great stuff, from many time periods and cultures. It was used as a fort during the Rev, esp during Brant's raids. The is a cannon ball still stuck in the eaves somewhere.

Sorry to go off-topic, but this is a very important museum.

There are utensils from every day life, which adds a lot to the rifle's back story. There is a letter written by Brant in one of the showcases.

A sweet chip-carved foot warmer. It's gotta have an iron box for the coals inside, eh.


And a lovely wallet.

[JCKelly]

If you really do intend to make a brass gun barrel, and then actually fire it, You might want to do a little research.

There are about 500 copper base alloys called variously brass, bronze or copper. These names are a couple thousand years old and we have come up with just a few new alloys Hector bit the dust.

One problem you may have is the eternal conflict between machinability and a safe barrel metal.

Various Ampco grades, if you can find them, are strong and TOUGH but they might not machine so nice. One in particular, Ampco 18  aluminum bronze is made fror things like gears, or screw down nuts in steel mill service. One of my associates found some at the scrap dealer & asked me if it would suit for a small cannon. Looked up the properties and it seemed better than the 90% copper 10% tin alloy used for cast cannon barrels, such as the Napoleon's shot at my Great-grandfather.

The Clinton River Muzzle-loader who made the gun is an outstanding, and retired, GM toolmaker. He might have some opinions on the machinability. I suspect some of the 10% aluminum in this alloy may form a little aluminum oxide to wear out your tools. Oh, well - live with it.

What you may NOT be able to live with is the extreme lack of cross-grain ductility (toughness) in anyone's leaded grade. You may find leaded whatever strongly suggested by whoever has to machine this thing. Lead is a good lubricant, helps make nice short crumbly chips. You do NOT want a crumbly gun barrel. Them there nasty l-o-o-o-ng curly chips mean a good tough metal which should withstand reasonable charges.

The only reason I know to make a brass barrel is that it is pretty. Considering that shooting any flintlock is not all that practical, I guess a brass barrel would fit right in here.

[Bill Paton]

If anybody wants to see additional photos or measurements of the Schoharie brass barreled fowler, the curator of the Old Stone Fort Museum an hour West of Albany, NY is Dan Beams at 518-295-7192. He was very cooperative with me last October when I visited the museum to study a swivel breech rifle. He seemed truly interested in learning more about it, and I suspect he would be receptive to questions about the brass barreled fowler.

The building started life as a church, and was used as a fort during the Revolution.  Rev War history played out there. The small British “grasshopper” cannonball stuck in a roof beam during a siege is now in a case to be seen, having been rescued when they repaired the roof some years ago.

The museum is very interesting, eclectic, and has a large collection of frontier materiel. It is very much worth a visit if you are in Upstate New York.

Bill Paton

[Captchee]

I sure wish I wasn’t clear across the country . I would simply love to be able to accurately document this piece

[RAT]

Just a small comment going back to the original post...

Why was brass (bronze) used?

It was sometimes specified for naval service guns because of it's resistance to salt water corrosion. I think that's one reason we see it used more in smoothbore pistols than in long guns.

[Acer Saccharum]

I don't know, I have only speculation.

A brass pistol barrel is easy to cast. Possibly cheaper than iron because of less labor cost? 

Iron mounts were more expensive than brass or silver, because the iron mounts had to be individually made from forgings, and every detail had to be engraved or chiseled, for each piece. Brass and silver could be mass produced by casting, with relief sculpting already cast right in.

[JCKelly]

It may be easier to cast brass than forge iron, but the cost of copper alloys has been greater than that of iron for about three thousand years now. I rather imagine that southern mountain rifles were iron mounted because they had iron ore, and brass would come from over the mountains to the east.

I agree, brass was used occasionally for naval service because it did not rust around the sea.

Back in wheel lock times there was a German guy noted for his brass barreled pistols. Forget his name. These barrels were made by forming a tube out of brass plate and stitching together the seam in some fashion.