Engraving question

[bama]

I am posting this looking for comments about the engraving and the construction on this side plate from a Lemuel Leland NE fowler. I will post my thoughts and then I hope our other members with engraving experience or anyone that would like to comment or ask a question to chime in.

1. It appears that this side plate was sand cast, there are many little inclusions in the brass which lead me to believe it to be a casting.

2. The engraving around the boarder I think could possibly be punched instead of cut with a graver. I am not positive about this  because there is no rasied material that would be upset on the backside of the side plate. The reason I think that it is punched is the boarder to me does not apper to be cut. At Least I have not been able to cut a boarder this cleanly, maybe others with more experiance can answer this question for me.

3. If the boarder is cut with a gaver what type of grave was used?

4. The vine and leaf design I do believe to be cut with a graver. The tip of the leaf or flower bud is cut realitively deep compared to the balance of the engraving. My question is what type of graver was used to cut this design?

5. Look at the bolt locations. I found the rear lock bolt hole to be interesting in that the hole has a constant taper to it and the hole at the back or the plate is off center from where it started on the front of the plate.

6. The bolt hole diameter is rather large compared to the actual diameter of the bolts which I believe to be original to the gun.

These are just some of my thoughts in looking at the work of a good gunsmith from the early 1800 time period.

What do you see?

[Mark Elliott]

It looks punched or stamped to me also.   However,  you can do that nick and dot border a couple of ways that I know of.   There is the hard way that I have yet to master cutting it with a standard square graver and then there is the easy way John Schippers taught me.   That involves grinding special push gravers.   I couldn't possibly explain how to grind those things here.  I suggest you buy his book.    Those graver designs may be worth the purchase price.   I have to warn you that he does things differently than most other longrifle engravers.  

[smylee grouch]

If the thing was punched, and it looks as so to me, I assume that the brass was very soft and any brass flow around the punched divots was dressed down very cleanly. This coming from someone who knows next to nothing about engraving.

[jerrywh]

 In my opinion the whole thing was cut with two gravers. One flat and one 90 degree.  On the back of the plate the marks are those left by a hammer that was used to stretch the plate to make it fit.
  It is possible that the pattern on the front looks to be punched  because it was cast in and was on the original pattern. I think the hole is off as a result of trying to make it fit the bolt holes.
Originally this whole thing was cut IMHO.

[Mark Elliott]

In my opinion the whole thing was cut with two gravers. One flat and one 90 degree.  On the back of the plate the marks are those left by a hammer that was used to stretch the plate to make it fit.
  It is possible that the pattern on the front looks to be punched  because it was cast in and was on the original pattern. I think the hole is off as a result of trying to make it fit the bolt holes.
Originally this whole thing was cut IMHO.

Do you think the flat was used to cut the nick border in one pass?

[bama]

Jerry you may be correct that this whole this is a casting from an original. I didn't think about that, I can usually see under the scope any small over runs or some sign of a little slip or something but I can not find it on this boarder. if you look at the upper left of the rear bolt hole there appears to be part of the boarder exterior line that did not get recut. This confused me at first but I think you may be right in that this was cast from a master and then recut except for the cuts that make the dot part of the boarder.

I almost feel that a onlet graver was used for the vine work. Do you think that is a possiblity?

[jerrywh]

Mark.
  . There is something strange about the way that border is cut. If you look closely at the outside line you can see very small pyramid type marks at the bottom of each pyramid cut. That suggests to me that the pattern was not cut in a conventional manner. It also tells me that whoever cut it was a rank amateur. I would have to see it very closely to tell just how he did it.
  The conventional way to cut this is to first cut a single line around the outside. Then cut the first row of pyramid cuts with a flat following the line. Then another single line should be cut a little distance from the top of the first set of pyramids. Then the opposing set of pyramids on the top.
  Being an amateur part of this procedure was left out by him. I have a hunch that he did not cut the pyramids with a flat but could have used a 90° on the whole thing. That would explain the little pyramids I mentioned on the bottom of the first set
  Looks like I was wrong on my first assessment.
 Could be an onglet also like Bama says.

[kutter]

I think the whole pattern was cut with one tool,,a flat 'graver.
The flat graver is a simple tool to make, sharpen and keep sharp. Not like a V graver.
Perfect for a rifle maker of the period wishing to add a bit of ornamentation to a build.

To get the V shaped cuts, it's rolled over on one of it's edges to make use of the point on either side of the flat. The farther it's rolled, the finer the line. Dip it downward and you get the same flared line effect as a V tool, but only in one direction.  Right handed use usually dictates the 'flat'of the graver being away from the engraver in use but you can quickly adapt to using it towards you as well though it's a bit awkward at first.

The borders shown are quick and easy to do with a flat like that especially for a person starting out.

It might not be the accepted way to cut, but I did it that way for a long time myself! including scroll, lettering, shading, ect. No one to show me any different. That's the way it is when you learn in the dark.
It's an easy tool to control also and a great one to do script lettering with .