Building the Kit Carson Hawken

[Herb]

I am now building two Carson Hawkens to be close copies of the original, except one will have a 1" barrel for weight reduction.  Others here have said the barrel is 31 1/8" long ahead of the snail.  To get the correct dimensions and parts, I secured Jim Gordon's permission to photo enlarge his Kit Carson rifle photo in his excellent book "Great Gunmakers for the Early American West, Volume III".

I took his book to a printing shop and they enlarged the full length photo to life size.  Knowing my Jim Bridger copy was closely similar to the Carson rifle, I laid it on the photo and here is the result.  Note that my barrel is only 31" long (The GRRW 1 1/8" I had to work with) instead of Bridger's 33 1/8".  Thus I made my forend shorter and the keys are spaced differently from Bridgers, but are closely similar to Carson's, just by chance.

Length of pull is 13 1/4" for both.

Same butt plate for both, the Jim Bridger from Track of the Wolf.  Needs filing out.
[img width=700pt height=351]https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/KCBP_zpszzcmcfhp.jpg[/img]
The locks are the same, the Jim Bridger by Davis, only about .050" shorter than the originals.

Trigger guard same for both, Track's LG-Hawk-L-I or Muzzleloader Builders Supply 14820.  Some minor heating and bending is needed.  Correct trigger is Ron Long by Track.  Note the low blades, work as is.  The front of the plate needs to be bent lower to match the stock.  I always do this.

L&R trigger is different, but can be made to work with shortening the triggers.  Note the higher blades.  This is MBS trigger guard, which has an unthreaded 5/16" stud for fastening into the trigger plate.  You have to cut the threads, and also recut Track's 1/4" stud threads.

Correct entry pipe is filed from Track's, with the barrel cut shorter for Carson to 2.7" length.  Bridger's is 2.75".

Nose cap is best made of a casting rather than the Ted Cash.  Track's looks to be .5 inch long, but MBS is .8" long, correct, and made for 1 1/8" or 1". which can be filed open for a tapered barrel.
My Bridger compared to Track's full size plan of their "Kit Carson Hawken".

There is no correct inletted stock for the Carson as far as I know, but I think Knob Mountain has one very close, with a 13 1/4" LOP and a 3" drop at heel.  I had Carl Walker of the old GRRW bandsaw their Hawken pattern out of my blanks, route the 1 1/8" tapered barrel and saw the 1" straight barrel inlet for the other and drill the 7/16" ramrod holes.  I have to whittle away what isn't needed.

[Don Stith]

If you had the opportunity to measure the original , you might have found some differences in your dimensions
 The Carson lock is a full 5" in length That is longer than the Bridger lock
 You might want to look at my website DonStith.com

As far as I know, I am the only one offering an accurate precarve stock for the Carson. The website has not been updated for 12 yrs so prices are not current and does not show my new Carson lock that matches the dimensions of the original
  The rifle pictured on the site is the one I made for the Masonic lodge that is on display at the Kit Carson home.  Bob Roller made that lock to my measurements from the original.
 Ron Upchurch contracted me to make that one as a gift from his lodge in the St Louis area to the Taos lodge

[Herb]

The photo enlargement is made up of pieces taped together.  A seam comes right at the front of the lock, and it apparently is not exactly correct.  The Davis lock measures about 4.85 and my photo mosaic lock measures 4.90.  I have not handled or measured the Carson rifle.  I apologize for saying there was no correct inletted stock for the Carson rifle, I did know of yours.  I should have said exclusive of your parts set.  I assume you do not sell your stock by itself?

[Don Stith]

Herb
 I could sell a stock but since it is set up for my copy of the Carson Hardware, it would not work for you. Incidentally, if you ever saw the Davis trigger casting as originally moulded by Ron Long, you would see an important difference. The rear of the trigger plate has a bend upward for the last few inches. Unfortunately they straightened the plate out at some point in its modern history. That changes the toeline of the butt stock and is probably what is causing you to have to bend the front end.
 Not obvious in pictures, but the late Plains rifle Hawkens had a very slight step wrist instead of the toe being a straight line from butt plate toe to mid point of triggers as in the earlier guns

[Herb]

Thank you for your comments.  I am building one Carson for barter to my dentist and the other for me, and I thought about buying your parts set but I had these three halfstock blanks on hand and foolishly decided to whittle my own.  Too late to turn back now .Got them sawed out and barrels inletted.
When GRRW had the Bridger Hawken in their shop in Nov 1975, Greg Roberts took photos of it and made a tracing on brown paper.  He wrote under his tracing of the toe line Slightly Fish Bellied.

Here is his photo of the buttplate .

[Don Stith]

Herb
 For your future reference, I do accommodate people who want to supply their own wood
 I have the Medina parts set ready now and am working on a full stock flint pattern.
The lock moulds are underway and working on a master for the trigger guard.
 The guard is a simplified version of the one on the Montana Hist. Society half stock discussed earlier on ALR.  You may have been the one that posted those photos.
 My current thinking on the flinter is to offer two different barrels One would be the 1" to 7/8" barrel like on my J&S fullstock
 The other would be Rices new 40" lightly swamped Hagga(sic) pattern. I would appreciate your thoughts on this project. My email is ontargets@aol.com  if you prefer to contact me off the board
 THanks
Don

[Herb]

If I could start over, I would get the parts from you.  All I know about Hawkens is what I've learned from others, much of it on this web site.  But I have learned by building and shooting and I cannot shoot long and heavy rifles off-hand anymore- if I ever could!  My last fullstock flint Hawken had a 1x36" barrel and weighed 9 3/4 pounds,  but I could no longer shoot it to place well in our local matches and so sold it.  I could shoot my 10 3/4 pound Bridger caplock with its 31" barrel and 13 1/4" LOP and even hit all the targets the last time I shot it, but the big boys get nasty about caplocks so I have to go to a flintlock.  I know very little about original  Hawkens, but I wonder how many people would want a 40" barrel.  Would you have a new rifle different from your J&S fullstock? 

[Joe S.]

40" barrel,interesting,I would think being swamped and make it a .62 your not adding a lot of weight.Not trying to highjack Herbs thread but is this your riverboat captain's hawken Don?

[Don Stith]

Joe
 That will be the prototype with 40" swamped and 58 cal. As slow as I am anymore it might be next year though
Don

[Joe S.]

I'm looking forward to seeing this rifle and a flint to boot.You have my attention.

[Herb]

Ron, I am up to my armpits in the misery of whittling these stocks down.  I have built maybe 6 to 10 Hawkens from the stick before, but I guess my memory is gone because I did not remember all the trouble of doing this, and there is a lot.  I have both barrels and tangs inletted, (with the tangs bent to the correct contour of the wrist), the forends sawed to one-quarter inch width, and for the 1" barrel the lock panels slimmed and the lock inletted.  Next to shape the lock panels and then install the trigger, the butt plate and then slim the buttstock and wrist.  That is a lot of work with hand tools.  I do have the butt plate filed back to match Carson's, and it does.  I'll post some photos when there is some worthwhile progress specific to the Carson rifle.  Thanks for your interest.

[rich pierce]

Herb, you're an inspiration to us!

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Herb:  I must commend you on your dedication to the study of the Hawken rifle.  With input from knowledgeable folks like Don Stith, we students can come a lot closer to approaching an authentic build, and reap the satisfaction that comes with it.  Well done, my man!!