Flash Pans and Lock Shapes

[The Rambling Historian]

I've been trying to make a mental list of attributes that can help more accurately date flintlock firearms with unknown makers. Obviously proofmarks and the like are one method, and later guns (especially sporting arms) often have more refined attributes.

Approximately when did removable flash pans become common/standard?
Are there particular lock shapes that become common at particular dates/periods? I have noticed that earlier guns see to me more likely to have less straight lines especially along the bottom edge.

[JCKelly]

This approach might be appropriate for military arms, which were (more or less) made to a pattern.
There are a number of good musket books. For US flint, consider US Military Flintlock Muskets, the early years by Peter A Schmidt

We copied French muskets from the beginning. There is a new book out French Military Small Arms, Vol I Flintlock Longarms, Didier Bianchi, in paperback. This book is good, though it does not compare in the precision, if you will, of Schmidt's study. I believe it is the best available in English, maybe because it is the ONLY available English language book on French muskets. Well, someone will correct me mentioning some older book (like Bianchi's pictures better)

Sporting arms, the long rifles discussed on this site, used a wide variety of locks. Ethnic German makers in Pennsylvania often bought their locks from Germany, or make their own in Germanic styles.
Riflesmiths in those states with close commercial ties to England, e.g. New England and the American South, tended to use English made locks.

Yes, the earlier locks tended to have a concave bottom edge to the plate, "banana shaped" as the Brown Bess guys would say.

Relating lock styles to age is a rough way to go. Unless the gunsmith made his own locks, which some did, they used whatever lock was available. In the last century many flintlock rifles converted to percussion have been reconverted using a whole replacement lock. Some of the work is hard to tell, others obvious.

If you are new to this whole business, BUY BOOKS. For the best photos along with excellent history I would suggest Thoughts on the Kentucky Rifle in its Golden Age, Joe Kindig, Jr. 1960.  Available from Shumway in York, Pennsylvania. Or used from abebooks.com Well, that is my personal opinion. Others on this site think the newer books are just wonderful. I am inclined to respect Kindig and Kauffman more than some.

[smart dog]

Hi,
If you are serious about building a knowledge base about flintlocks then buy Torsten Lenk's "The Flintlock: its origin and development".  The answers to your questions would take a long time.  Removable pans go back to early matchlocks and wheellocks and would not be a useful feature for dating. 

dave

[The Rambling Historian]

Thank you guys very much for your input. I will be sure to check out your recommendations. I briefly took a look at a fairly rough fowling piece the other day for the friend of a friend that had a "banana" lock and integral flash pan and was under the impression it was likely from earlier than the late 18th century as the owner was suggesting. Only markings I noted were some relatively crude looking London crown over V and crown of CP proofs at the breech on the left. I didn't get the chance to take a longer look at it or take pictures to see if there was anything particular about it that may have given me a clearer idea of when it was made. It just got me wondering if some aspects of the lock might help confirm or at least suggest an earlier date of manufacture. I am familiar with the most of the books you mentioned but have never found the time to actually go through them other than skimming for particular pieces of information at different times. I don't recall if Schmidt's book is something I have taken a look at. Hopefully, I can get some personal copies of these books to add to my arms library. I have a few books already but have held off on others because they are so expensive! A lot of copies of Kindig's book for example are well over $100 though I have seen some for less.

[kaintuck]

"I have a few books already but have held off on others because they are so expensive! A lot of copies of Kindig's book for example are well over $100 though I have seen some for less."

yup.......... but if you keep looking at amazon, weekly....they sometimes have a low priced ones, took me a couple of years to get what I wanted........
marc n tomtom

 

 
 
 

[Dphariss]

I've been trying to make a mental list of attributes that can help more accurately date flintlock firearms with unknown makers. Obviously proofmarks and the like are one method, and later guns (especially sporting arms) often have more refined attributes.

Approximately when did removable flash pans become common/standard?
Are there particular lock shapes that become common at particular dates/periods? I have noticed that earlier guns see to me more likely to have less straight lines especially along the bottom edge.

This would be an exercise in futility. The locks used in America were sometime 40-50 years behind the "state of the art" in England for example. So you could have rifles made back to back by the same maker with locks that look 50 years apart.
If you look in Lenks book you will see locks from the late 17th c that look very much like locks used on longrifles in the late 18th. So lock shape is not set in concrete. Bridled pan? Older than the American rifle but many early Kentucky have old fashioned locks. Lock shape, maybe. Unless the lock was recycled.
Dan

[The Rambling Historian]

Good points, especially for American guns. Your point is very valid even elsewhere to I would suppose given different areas of Europe used some really old styles much later than others. Some Spanish and Italian gunmakers were even still using miquelet locks with external sears in the percussion era!

[Mike Brooks]

Thank you guys very much for your input. I will be sure to check out your recommendations. I briefly took a look at a fairly rough fowling piece the other day for the friend of a friend that had a "banana" lock and integral flash pan and was under the impression it was likely from earlier than the late 18th century as the owner was suggesting. Only markings I noted were some relatively crude looking London crown over V and crown of CP proofs at the breech on the left. I didn't get the chance to take a longer look at it or take pictures to see if there was anything particular about it that may have given me a clearer idea of when it was made. It just got me wondering if some aspects of the lock might help confirm or at least suggest an earlier date of manufacture. I am familiar with the most of the books you mentioned but have never found the time to actually go through them other than skimming for particular pieces of information at different times. I don't recall if Schmidt's book is something I have taken a look at. Hopefully, I can get some personal copies of these books to add to my arms library. I have a few books already but have held off on others because they are so expensive! A lot of copies of Kindig's book for example are well over $100 though I have seen some for less.

You have a pretty good library right there at work. I used it all the time.

[Swab]

As far as removable flash pans goes both my wheellock, snaphaunce, and early pocket pistol (early 18th century) all have removable pans.

[Hungry Horse]

 In my experience removable pans, have more to do with the country of origin, and the quality of the lock, than when it was made. There are very late period locks that don't have a removable pan. Many of the very late high end locks had waterproof pans that were not removable.

        Hungry Horse