Chewed round balls vs smooth round balls

[heelerau]

 I am to old stiff and fat to reach them. 

[Dphariss]

Before rifling you still shot round ball that is why this forum is here so we can live hiftory with my fowler I am just as accurate as my rifle only with a chewed ball

Its a matter of the definition of "accuracy". When I see people stating that their SB is as accurate as their rifle I wonder just how accurate the rifle must be or if the shooter has bothered to find the best load for the rifle. Try shooting a 4" 10 shot string at 60 yards with a SB and see how it works out. (I have seen this done with a Green Mountian "production" barrel BTW).
Its apples and oranges.
With a scope there are RB barrels out there that will, in good weather conditions, shoot under 1" at 100. This is accuracy.
Then there is PRACTICAL accuracy vs target accuracy. If a gun will shoot into a 5" circle at 50 yards it will kill deer reliably. But at 100 its useless. and will throw balls over, under, in front of or in the guts. Not that great for small game so small shot must be used and the charge invariably is more wasteful of lead than a rifle. Why do you think all those small bore rifles were made from 1800 onward? That the SB is far less efficient than the rifle in all respects for any use the but flying birds or shooting several on the ground or water art once has been known for centuries. This was one complaint the traders had with the natives in America using rifles was that they used far less powder and lead and reduced sales volume. This is documented. People in the 18th c knew the rifle was superior. I have read accounts of people being laughed at when getting off a flatboat in Kentucky with a fowler. 
I don't care about what people shoot. I like the lines of a nice fowler and they have a purpose. But telling people that the SB is as accurate as a rifle might mislead some of the less experienced people here.
One other thing. Back in the day rifle matches were shot from a rest. Shooting offhand was a poor test of a rifle.
Dan

[bob in the woods]

Shooting off hand is still a poor test of a rifle. 

[Sharpsman]

It appears that good commonsense should dictate that a SB cannot be 'as accurate' as a rifled barrel! There was a reason why American and British forces advanced their ranks up to within almost 'spit ball' distances before letting loose with massed fire!! This scenario also accounted for vast casualties during the War of Northern Aggression as the Rifled Musket had come into being but the warring forces commanding generals still applied tactics utilized during the revolutionary war! I rest my case!

[WadePatton]

Shooting off hand is still a poor test of a rifle. 

It's _no_ test of a rifle in my journal.  Never was. 

[Dewey]

Not much of a test for a smooth bore, either!

[smallpatch]

Why not as cast roundballs?  We strive to have everything as smooth and consistent to the point of weighing balls, exerting the same amount of pressure each time, drop tubes,etc.  but for a smoothbore that all changes? 
Urban Legend?  Just sayin'.

[Rob]

If the dimples cover the entire surface of the ball why would it not drift in a random pattern .I saw an article about an experiment with a.22 small bore rifle iin which the muzzle was cut an angle to see the effect on accuracy the bit that interested me was that the projectile was deflected  a lot but  accuracy was not so  not so much  my thought perhaps if the muzzle was cut at an angle so that the ball was given positive back spin then accuracy would/ could be in creased  if the ball always spun in the same direction that would be one constant thing which could only be good  .. Rob

[Daryl]

I have watched through my binocs, balls being shot from a smoothbore by one of the lads here (Hatchet Jack) on a 92 yard target. I have seen a number of them heading straight at the target, yet seemingly only feet in front of the target - they veer off to one side or the other- quite randomly, to miss the fox target by 2 feet to 3 feet. Hatchet Jack's load was a mere 65gr. 2F, thus he would be lucky to beat the speed of sound.

The visual shows the balls appear to take on a spin and the dramatic veering appears like a curve ball in baseball.

Now - the more powder used, thus generating higher speeds, showed slighlty better accuracy at the longer ranges, perhaps due to the ball getting out there further before taking on that accuracy destroying spin?--
That is a supposition on my part.

Another of the 'lads' here complained about his 20 bore shooting left. Taylor and I tried it, finding it shot quite centred for us. The difference must simply be the way we see or saw the barrel and blade, compared to the owner.  

With this fairly long barreled smoothbore 20, I shot a 5-shot, 3" group at 50yards from the bench. It was a nice round group, but I only shot the one group- no more for proof of capability.

I cannot even come close to that with my own 20 bore (never), thus I have relegated my 20, to only shooting multiple little round balls at clay targets. My best at a normal 8"x11" target was 4 hits for 5 shots.

4 hits out of 5 shots on the 8"x11" page was actually better accuracy than the first place shooting in the first and last 50 yard smoothbore chunk match we held at Hefley Creek Rendezvous. The best target of all those shooters, had 5 hits (prone over a chunk) for 10 shots fired- 3 on one target and 2 on the other - supposed to be 5x5.

I think Dan's got a good handle on normal SB accuracy, or inaccuracy as it should more accurately be called.

[Hungry Horse]

 All I can say is several West Coast rifle shooters decided to take up golf, after shooting against the Canadian smoothbore shooters at Frog Holler years ago. Those guys could outshoot a rifle pretty regularly out to a hundred yards. Any rifle shooter that went to Frog, and then said he wasn't intimidated by the smoothbore shooters, was either lying, or he wasn't there.

  Hungry Horse

[Joe S.]

No offence but them West coast fellows either had rifles that could hit the broad side of a barn or they couldn't.No way a decent rifle and good shooter gets bested at a hundred yards by a smooth bore.Not saying there's folks out there that can't make good scores at a hundred with smooth bores but find it hard to believe they would beat a decent rifle shooter.

[Daryl]

I hesitate to say anything, but something must be said to defend "SOME" smoothbore shooters.

There are a few of them come to Rendezvous BC every year, who are about impossible to beat in the smoothbore matches, and who sometimes post scores higher than the highest rifle score - that does not happen very often - but odd times it does.  Years ago, in the silhouette match we used to have at Helfey,  2 smooth shooters come to mind & who always compete against each other sometimes posted scores higher than the rifle scores - by one or 2 points.  Since neither of them shoot rifles very much at all, generally only smoothbores at EVERY match, familiarity helps them I am sure. But- those guys are hard to beat. Some matches have skinny or very small targets at 60 to 80yadrds and those will sort out the smooth shooters fairly quickly - especially if Taylor is shooting "Voluptuous Virginia", a .50 "C" weight.

I am also sure neither of those smooth shooters would even consider scratch-rifling his smoothbore as I have heard has happened at other shoots.

[Joe S.]

not saying it can't happen but I'm sure it's not very often.If we put the best from both sides up against one another my money's on the rifle.

[Hungry Horse]

Not sayin' the rifle shooters got beat every time. But, it happened often enough that nobody counted their chickens before the final hatch. Most of these guys from Canada didn't own a rifle. And most of the guys that got beat owned too many rifles. Its the old story that goes, fear the man that only owns one gun. I learned to load a bare ball in my trade gun from these guys. They couldn't hide that part of their loading process, but it took another ten years to learn the rest of the trick.

  Hungry Horse

[bob in the woods]

Some folks are just better shooters, period.  I know that I can depend on my smoothbore to shoot a very very tight group at 25 to 50 yds.  Astonishingly tight. Having said that, I wouldn't expect to shoot a 48 to 50 score at 50 yds ...repeatedly.  My rifle will do it.   As a matter of fact, it has shot many 50's off the log, or the bench.
I started using a smoothbore some years ago, just because I like them. Off hand matches are a complete different ball game, since the person shooting is the main variable IMO.  Off hand, my smoothy has been a contender many times     

[Daryl]

Of the SB shooters up here, Taylor ranks with the top 2 or 3.  All of them use patches, usually denim or linen and one wipes between shots every time.
 This man also went  to 140gr. of 2F powder for the "Up To 150yard" smoothbore shoot in the rain one day and won that one as well. He then looked me up in my camp and thanked me for the suggestion of upping his charge to gain the added elevation and accuracy for the longest shot in that match - "it works", he said. He was the only one to hit that old oxygen tank. Lucky or skill - ? For him, that day, it worked.

[Pete G.]

Long range hits by a smooth bore can be mostly a matter of luck; but the more you practice, the luckier you get.

[crankshaft]

    During the summer  I go to NMLRA , state and other shoots.  I have never see anyone shoot a smoothie in the regular matches , just in the smoothbore matches.   No one shoots  smoothbores in the log shoots, (60 yds.) 

Sez something.
.
.

[Hungry Horse]

 O.K. Sorry guys, I forget that in places other than the far west people shoot muzzleloader in rather formal matches where you can have a metric ton of gear at the line, and a spotting scope the size of Mnt. Palimar. The trade gun vs. rifle shooting I was referring to, was on a trail walk, with steel changers as targets, or on survival runs where all shooting was out of the pouch.
 And just for the record some of these rifle shooter were more than just pretty good shots.

   Hungry Horse

[Daryl]

O.K. Sorry guys, I forget that in places other than the far west people shoot muzzleloader in rather formal matches where you can have a metric ton of gear at the line, and a spotting scope the size of Mnt. Palimar. The trade gun vs. rifle shooting I was referring to, was on a trail walk, with steel changers as targets, or on survival runs where all shooting was out of the pouch.
 And just for the record some of these rifle shooter were more than just pretty good shots.

   Hungry Horse

Same here, H.Horse, trail walks and steel target, offhand shoots.   

[Eric Krewson]

Tip Curtis has a 100 yard smoothbore target on the wall of his shop that has all the holes touching in a tight group. I think he shot it at Friendship, very impressive.

Like has been mentioned; some folk are better than others.

[bob in the woods]

Eric, with all due respect, [ and this coming from a dedicated smoothbore shooter ]   I have many/multiple  similar targets which were shot with my .54 rifle.    I applaud the target results you speak of, but my comment would be......." let's see you do it again  "     My rifle will beat my smoothbore any time.