Touch hole question

[Jamie]

I'm on my first time through "The Gunsmith of Grenville County" and have a question about touch holes.  On page 114 (in chapter 10) the author suggests putting the touch hole a sixteenth below the midpoint of the side flat, which means the lock will also be lower.  He states this is consistent with the Colonial period which is the period I am interested in.  I like the suggestion, however I'm wondering what the effect might be on ignition and/or using a touch hole liner since the hole will not be as short as possible and the liner will not sit square to the inside  of the barrel.

I'd prefer to ask the author directly, but can't find any way to contact him.  Has anyone out there done this, and is there anything I will need to look out for if I do this.  This is my first time building so please cut me some slack if this is a dumb question.

Cheers,

Jamie

[Ed Wenger]

Hi Jamie,

This is my take on your question, which is a good one...  It is desirable to have the top line of the lock plate align with the top line of the stock.  Since you want at least half of the barrel exposed above the stock, this would most likely put the vent hole where Mr. Alexander suggests.

This is just me, but I wouldn't sweat that.  I feel it's more important to position the lock where it looks "right".  If that means the top of the lock plate doesn't align with the top of the stock, oh well...  After the lock is inlet, the vent hole is then drilled relative to where the pan is.  I've found that when it comes to Longrifles, there are very few absolutes, such as the vent hole being 1/16" below the midpoint of the side flat. 

          Ed

[Nordnecker]

I sweated over this on my first build. It was suggested to me to simply put a dot from a magic marker, not a center punch, on the barrel where you think the touch hole should be. There are greater considerations about the lock position at this time. Proceed with your build, and as Ed said, after the lock is inlet, drill your hole relative to the pan. You will most likely have to remove the breech plug and grind the inside of the liner off flush with the inside of the barrel so the liner relation to the bore is not an issue.
There are many here more knowledgable than me. Hope this helps.

[kaintuck]

I would like to think the lock will be positioned correctly to line up with the forearm, the tang and the flat of the barrel...that being said, in most cases it will line 1/2 on the flat or  1/64" or so below the centerline...a 6 o'clock hole at the " sunset position on the pan for consistent ignitions.

And liners are really needed, a hole the correct diameter works well, and a person can always make his own liner to fit the size of the barrel fram a bolt.

Build the gun, get the lock in the correct place, do a 6 o'clock hole....I bet it will be in the right place👍🏽
Marc n tomtom

[Pete G.]

If you use a liner the inside cone places the charge next to the touch hole. This makes the location much less critical, within reason of course. It is much more important to have the hole located properly in respect to the lock.

[Mike Brooks]

First off, throw away that book. You'll find as you build guns the lock doesn't always end up exactly where you intended it to. Where ever your lock eventually ends up is how you figure out where you're going to put your touch hole.

[Lucky R A]

Mike is absolutely right,  Building a longrifle is not a mathematical process.  On some schools of building 2/3 of the barrel is exposed which in turn will require a slightly lower lock placement for aesthetic reasons.   At the price of a good White Lightening liner why screw around trying to make your own inferior liner out of a bolt?  Go with good quality from the beginning and your will have nothing to regret later...

Ron

[WadePatton]

It's a pretty good book, just don't get caught up in some details like that. 

Different styles and makers have different quirks. Look at a dozen originals in your style (IN PERSON) to get a better feel for what you should do.  A book is just one guy and his experience.  There are others.

[thimble rig]

Yeah it is a really good book for getting started learning how to build.And everyone has there own way of doing things.Just lay  everything out on youre stock before you start building to see how it all fits together.You will do fine.

[Joe S.]

Just like all "school" books it explains the how to's in theory. It's a good place to start to get a little knowledge. The fun comes when you get into the field and the book didn't tell you about the what ifs.

[retired fella]

Just to  restate the obvious, don't drill the touch hole until the lock is installed.  The magic marker can be used to make sure your touch hole will be properly in front of the breach plug and placement of your lock follows.

[Cory Joe Stewart]

I agree with many of the suggestions above.  Let the position of the lock determine where the touch hole goes.  You do need to have a rough idea as you build, for example know where the breech is in the barrel and avoid it.  Place the lock where it looks right. 

Installing the touch hole is one lf the very last things I do.

Coryjoe

[Jamie]

Thanks to everyone, it sounds like I may be over thinking it so I won't sweat it.  I'm  sure I'll have bigger problems to overcome before I'm done.

Good to have you all at my back, so to speak!  BTW, anyone who sent me a PM should have received a reply, but since I didn't click "save" I don't have copies so don't know for sure everything worked.

Jamie

[Bill Ladd]

Jamie - You may have already discovered this. On your "messages" page, there is a box toward the bottom you may click on that will automatically save your messages to your outbox.

[Turtle]

 Another factor is centering the liner on the flat to enable the use of the largest possible size and maintaining alignment with the center of the bore. I know proper style doesn't always allow this, but I get better ignition with a larger white lightning.

[Acer Saccharum]

Before you get all touch-hole-centric, make sure you can locate your front and rear bolts easily. That alone may dictate where the lock will end up, leaving a little wiggle room for touch hole positioning.

[Long John]

Jamie,

I'm no "expert".  But I build my rifles to shoot.  So the shooting characteristics of the guns I build are of paramount importance.  That being said, I build the rifle around the touch-hole, not the other way around.  Once the barrel is let in I spot the touch-hole at the center of the side flat far enough forward of the breech face to allow the vent bushing to be installed without collision with the breech plug face.  I then position the lock to maximize the effectiveness of the lock relative to the vent (touch-hole).  Since I usually use Chambers locks which have a detachable flash-pan I detach the flash pan and let that into the stock so that the vent is bisected by the top surface of the flash pan.  Once the pan is let, I re-attach it to the lock plate and let in the plate.  Then I let in the rest of the lock.   Once the lock is let in then the trigger is positioned.  Once the trigger is position the butt-plate can be located.  The, and only then I carve the stock down so that it forms an integrated whole with the metal parts(i.e. the top of the lock flats even with the top of the barrel side-flat, etc.) This approach maximizes the shooting effectiveness of the gun as a whole.  This approach is also limited to building a rifle (gun) from a blank.  If you are using a pre-carved stock the lock inlet is already there and you have to let in the lock and then adjust the barrel in-let to put the vent where it belongs relative to the flash-pan. In my view a gun that looks "purty" but doesn't shoot is a failure. 

There are many who chafe at Mr. Alexander's writing style, which implies that his way of doing things is the ONLY way and it is the RIGHT way.  I have read his book, I refer to it from time to time.  But I don't view it as a gospel.

And finally, I reserve the right to be wrong in someone else's view.

Best Regards,

John Cholin

[Acer Saccharum]

My touch hole preferences: A touch hole, coned from the inside, and positioned centered in the pan looking down upon it, and near the top level surface of the pan(so that the pan cover covers the hole when closed, and keeps the prime from smothering the touch hole).


There was a lot of speculation about priming to one side of the pan or the other; but that was before the high speed video came along. Larry's findings proved that more tinder gets the fire started faster.

[JCurtiss]

Once the barrel is let in I spot the touch-hole at the center of the side flat far enough forward of the breech face to allow the vent bushing to be installed without collision with the breech plug face.  I then position the lock to maximize the effectiveness of the lock relative to the vent (touch-hole). 

I'm a rank novice and that's what I did too.  And I'm pleased with the outcome. 

Jason

[Jamie]

Jamie - You may have already discovered this. On your "messages" page, there is a box toward the bottom you may click on that will automatically save your messages to your outbox.

Got it, thanks.

[Jamie]

Jamie,

I'm no "expert".  But I build my rifles to shoot.  So the shooting characteristics of the guns I build are of paramount importance.  That being said, I build the rifle around the touch-hole, not the other way around.  Once the barrel is let in I spot the touch-hole at the center of the side flat far enough forward of the breech face to allow the vent bushing to be installed without collision with the breech plug face.  I then position the lock to maximize the effectiveness of the lock relative to the vent (touch-hole).  Since I usually use Chambers locks which have a detachable flash-pan I detach the flash pan and let that into the stock so that the vent is bisected by the top surface of the flash pan.  Once the pan is let, I re-attach it to the lock plate and let in the plate.  Then I let in the rest of the lock.   Once the lock is let in then the trigger is positioned.  Once the trigger is position the butt-plate can be located.  The, and only then I carve the stock down so that it forms an integrated whole with the metal parts(i.e. the top of the lock flats even with the top of the barrel side-flat, etc.) This approach maximizes the shooting effectiveness of the gun as a whole.  This approach is also limited to building a rifle (gun) from a blank.  If you are using a pre-carved stock the lock inlet is already there and you have to let in the lock and then adjust the barrel in-let to put the vent where it belongs relative to the flash-pan. In my view a gun that looks "purty" but doesn't shoot is a failure. 

There are many who chafe at Mr. Alexander's writing style, which implies that his way of doing things is the ONLY way and it is the RIGHT way.  I have read his book, I refer to it from time to time.  But I don't view it as a gospel.

And finally, I reserve the right to be wrong in someone else's view.

Best Regards,

John Cholin

The parts are Chambers and the stock is a blank, not pre-carved.  I'll keep your comments on hand - well, I'm keeping everyone's comments in mind, but you've hit a couple of extra relevant points there.

Jamie

[Keb]

I've got thoughts on touch holes, lock placement and vent liners which may be different from a lot of the experts. Some breech plugs are quite deep in the breech (compared to originals) so the lock must be slid forward for the liner to miss the breech face. But in doing this it is important to note where the end of the lock bolster ends up for location of the lock screw. If it's too far forward it may have to pass through the breech pretty close to the end of the barrel. Now, I've shot a lot of flintlocks over the years and I just can't tell the difference between using a liner or drilled hole so I figure why not just mount the lock where it looks good and drill a hole on a slight angle if needed to miss the breech plug face? Or even notch the breech plug face to allow the fire to pass by. I've done this more than once when a vent liner would hit the breech plug threads. The gun's ignition doesn't seem to care if the fire is burning at a slight angle and still goes off faster than I can flinch.
Sometimes I think people get all to nit-picky over some things that really don't matter when it comes to making a gun shoot. My method works fine for me without the liner and I'll continue to use a coned and drilled hole on my guns.

What I have noticed is Chambers locks, except the Siler styles, have the pan placed far enough ahead for the vent hole to miss the breech face. I like that.

[B.Habermehl]

 I carefully lay out my touch hole to breech face relationship as soon as my barrel inletting is complete. Then inlet the lock accordingly. This way I seldom have a notch in the breech plug face from liner threads. However the installation of the touch hole liner is usually one of the three last operations of assembling the gun before finishing starts. The other two are the sights. BJH