Author Topic: Cnc machining flintlock barrel and lock  (Read 12015 times)

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19353
Re: Cnc machining flintlock barrel and lock
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2018, 06:52:27 PM »
It just keeps getting better!  Thanks, Jim.
Andover, Vermont

Online davec2

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2911
    • The Lucky Bag
Re: Cnc machining flintlock barrel and lock
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2018, 01:03:32 AM »
Jim,

Great post.  I have spent the last almost 40 years building rocket engines for many of the most complicated and advanced space and weapon systems ever built.  I have used almost every manufacturing and metal joining technique known from ancient times to the most modern technology to fabricate parts out of almost any material you can think of from ceramics and balsa wood to carbon /carbon, to high temperature metal alloys, to vapor phase niobium. 

Each time a new technique comes along, there are always a few that try to make simple parts by complicated processes and to universally apply one technique to any manufacturing task...no matter how ill adapted it might be.  I have always found that a combination of techniques, some modern, some ancient, some in between, is usually the fastest and best way to make quality parts from given materials.  Your description of combining near net cast parts with the precision of CNC for surfacing and hole placement, drilling, taping, turning, etc., sounds like the best utilization of available manufacturing processes to produce a quality lock with the minimum of touch labor and maximum accuracy.

Bravo Zulu !!
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780

Offline Darkhorse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1663
Re: Cnc machining flintlock barrel and lock
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2018, 04:00:42 AM »
The process just described is the method that has been used at least since 1977 when I began work for the Air Force. It's not always possible though, it all depends on the tech order for the part in question. Many of the structural components had to be made from forgings, then we used billets. Sometimes they arrived in the rough shape of part. The only thing we were concerned with was accuracy of the part being made, never quantity. I built fixtures on machine tools that would hold +or-.0005 across the entire length of the machine travel, sometimes up to over 15 feet. This is the kind of accuracy one can expect from a good machine tool in top condition. Once a program is worked out every tumbler or plate, etc. could be exactly alike if your fixturing is top notch. I can only imagine at the possibilities offered by the newer controls and machines introduced since I retired. A way to see this new technology being demonstrated is to attend the Tool Show in Chicago held each fall. I attended every year for many years and some of that stuff is amazing.
However, I cannot wrap my head around a 3d printer producing a metal part. I haven't researched this but I know you can't just scan an item then print out a finished part. There are a lot of steps missing here somewhere. I'd love to hear the details.
American horses of Arabian descent.

ddoyle

  • Guest
Re: Cnc machining flintlock barrel and lock
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2018, 05:02:32 AM »

It does feel kind of wrong to mill a Long Rifle or any thing connected with it using a chinese spindle running in chinese bearings powered by a chinese DC motor and a chinese PWM guided by a chinese linear slide.  Means to end maybe, but who cares about the end it is the means that we need to preserve.

I am holier then thou cause I use chinese tools to replicate foriegn import guns  ;D

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9635
Re: Cnc machining flintlock barrel and lock
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2018, 04:53:19 PM »
Jim,

Great post.  I have spent the last almost 40 years building rocket engines for many of the most complicated and advanced space and weapon systems ever built.  I have used almost every manufacturing and metal joining technique known from ancient times to the most modern technology to fabricate parts out of almost any material you can think of from ceramics and balsa wood to carbon /carbon, to high temperature metal alloys, to vapor phase niobium. 

Each time a new technique comes along, there are always a few that try to make simple parts by complicated processes and to universally apply one technique to any manufacturing task...no matter how ill adapted it might be.  I have always found that a combination of techniques, some modern, some ancient, some in between, is usually the fastest and best way to make quality parts from given materials.  Your description of combining near net cast parts with the precision of CNC for surfacing and hole placement, drilling, taping, turning, etc., sounds like the best utilization of available manufacturing processes to produce a quality lock with the minimum of touch labor and maximum accuracy.

Bravo Zulu !!

I thought it was all touch labor. ;D

Bob Roller

Offline Elnathan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1773
Re: Cnc machining flintlock barrel and lock
« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2018, 06:36:04 PM »
I swear that some of the guys here just use a magic wand. Whether said wand is of domestic or foreign manufacture I couldn't say...
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

Mark15373

  • Guest
Re: Cnc machining flintlock barrel and lock
« Reply #31 on: January 27, 2018, 02:02:45 AM »
What would you recommend for the barrel hot or cold rolled? I have both, plan on going to machine them tomorrow but can't really find anything that says which is better or safer lol.

Offline bob in the woods

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4555
Re: Cnc machining flintlock barrel and lock
« Reply #32 on: January 27, 2018, 02:29:41 AM »
Cold rolled is by it's very nature , more brittle and subject to the forming stresses.  Picking the wrong material for your barrel can cost you in body parts or life itself. Knowing what you are doing , and what you are using is on the high side of important if you want to make a barrel.

Offline Sharpsman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 275
  • "There ain't no freedom...without gunpowder!"
Re: Cnc machining flintlock barrel and lock
« Reply #33 on: January 27, 2018, 02:38:55 AM »
The lock is real easy just like the barrel. Grab a hacksaw and a file and have at it.


 ;D ;D ;D
"There ain't no freedom...without gunpowder!"

Offline WadePatton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5295
  • Tennessee
Re: Cnc machining flintlock barrel and lock
« Reply #34 on: January 27, 2018, 03:03:30 AM »
To me it’s like desiring to make a flint arrowhead by CNC or 3-D printing.  It just does not excite me much.  It’s great to have quality parts available at affordable prices but I’m goin* to be more excited over someone hand forging a flintlock over CNC-ing it.

and how.
Hold to the Wind

Mark15373

  • Guest
Re: Cnc machining flintlock barrel and lock
« Reply #35 on: January 27, 2018, 03:04:57 PM »
Okay thanks bob appreciate it and it is my first gun so I'm still green haha

cpshoe

  • Guest
Re: Cnc machining flintlock barrel and lock
« Reply #36 on: January 27, 2018, 05:36:18 PM »
Just an observation... 2 pages and the original question hasn't been answered... nor have I seen any activity from the person who originally posed it... I have been lurking on here for a couple of years trying to glean information, and to some degree, I have found some good stuff but I see too much criticism that is not of the constructive type.  I have held off stating my opinion but can stay silent no longer. In my opinion, the moderators could do the site more justice by stopping the nit picking and moving posts with comments not pertaining to the original question to the appropriate forum... even if it might be the recycle bin.
I am expecting this post to bring a $#@* storm of comments... but I must tell you all that I don't expect to be party to this site much longer due to the direction I have seen it go since I first joined it.

Regards.

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19353
Re: Cnc machining flintlock barrel and lock
« Reply #37 on: January 27, 2018, 05:49:46 PM »
Cpshoe, thanks for constructive criticism.  Moderators have just enough time between luxury chartered hunts and shoots in exotic places to put out the occasional fires here (attempt at humor).

Many think we over-moderate and it inhibits the fun.  Others prefer “less government” (ALR government).

It is interesting that topics become more interesting to the general membership than to the original poster.  The OP can create and destroy- can remove a topic they started.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13414
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Cnc machining flintlock barrel and lock
« Reply #38 on: January 27, 2018, 05:52:59 PM »
Just an observation... 2 pages and the original question hasn't been answered... nor have I seen any activity from the person who originally posed it... I have been lurking on here for a couple of years trying to glean information, and to some degree, I have found some good stuff but I see too much criticism that is not of the constructive type.  I have held off stating my opinion but can stay silent no longer. In my opinion, the moderators could do the site more justice by stopping the nit picking and moving posts with comments not pertaining to the original question to the appropriate forum... even if it might be the recycle bin.
I am expecting this post to bring a $#@* storm of comments... but I must tell you all that I don't expect to be party to this site much longer due to the direction I have seen it go since I first joined it.

Regards.
Quote
Hi all, came across some pieces of 1045 hot rolled steel scrap from my job and have a couple cnc machines there the barrel is easy but does anyone know where you can find mastercam files or compatable files to plug into the computer to machine the lock?
I have a hard time taking the OP seriously. "The barrel is easy"....right..... ::) here's a guy that thinks he's going to bolt some steel in a machine and a lock and barrel are going to fall out the other side as if by magic. ;) I've been building guns for 38 years and still can't do what he calls easy.
Here's my observation. I will advise he buy a good swamped barrel and a Chambers lock and see how they are made, then build them into a proper gun and after that if he's still remotely interested we can proceed from there.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6538
  • I Like this hat!!
Re: Cnc machining flintlock barrel and lock
« Reply #39 on: January 27, 2018, 08:50:20 PM »
What would you recommend for the barrel hot or cold rolled? I have both, plan on going to machine them tomorrow but can't really find anything that says which is better or safer lol.

Mark, please catch us up on the barrel machining you did today. I have not heard of anyone making one with a CNC before.
De Oppresso Liber
Marietta, GA

Liberty is the only thing you cannot have unless you are willing to give it to others. – William Allen White

Learning is not compulsory...........neither is survival! - W. Edwards Deming

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6538
  • I Like this hat!!
Re: Cnc machining flintlock barrel and lock
« Reply #40 on: January 27, 2018, 08:56:05 PM »
Just an observation... 2 pages and the original question hasn't been answered... nor have I seen any activity from the person who originally posed it... I have been lurking on here for a couple of years trying to glean information, and to some degree, I have found some good stuff but I see too much criticism that is not of the constructive type.  I have held off stating my opinion but can stay silent no longer. In my opinion, the moderators could do the site more justice by stopping the nit picking and moving posts with comments not pertaining to the original question to the appropriate forum... even if it might be the recycle bin.
I am expecting this post to bring a $#@* storm of comments... but I must tell you all that I don't expect to be party to this site much longer due to the direction I have seen it go since I first joined it.

Regards.


cpshoe, You might want to read the post just before yours and a few above that. The OP seems to be grateful for getting what is available.  Maybe we don't have as much to offer as you expect. We tend to be folks who build by hand and using historical methods....  Hope you will stick around. we re always trying to do it better!!
De Oppresso Liber
Marietta, GA

Liberty is the only thing you cannot have unless you are willing to give it to others. – William Allen White

Learning is not compulsory...........neither is survival! - W. Edwards Deming

Offline Marcruger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3698
Re: Cnc machining flintlock barrel and lock
« Reply #41 on: January 28, 2018, 12:17:30 AM »
"I am expecting this post to bring a $#@* storm of comments... but I must tell you all that I don't expect to be party to this site much longer due to the direction I have seen it go since I first joined it."

Odd.  I have found this to be the most well-behaved, useful, and well-intentioned group of gentleman and ladies I have found on any forum on any subject.  Perhaps the "Quaker Ladies Quilting Forum" is more peaceful and gentle, but I don't frequent there. 

Offline okieboy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 820
Re: Cnc machining flintlock barrel and lock
« Reply #42 on: January 28, 2018, 03:10:31 AM »
 Well! Here is some criticism. "Hot rolled" and "cold rolled"(which is sometimes actually cold drawn) are metal working processes that do not actually tell you what material specification one is referring to. I know that most people using these terms mean C1018, but that is like telling a wood supplier that you want "quarter-sawn" without stating a species.
 Sorry Moderators, but I just can't be well behaved tonight! :P
Okieboy

Online davec2

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2911
    • The Lucky Bag
Re: Cnc machining flintlock barrel and lock
« Reply #43 on: January 28, 2018, 05:13:06 AM »
cpshoe,

You don't happen to be a lawyer are you ?  I respectfully ask because your comment sounds like you are looking for information more in the form of a deposition rather than an informed discussion.  In two years of lurking one would think you would have become acclimated to how these conversations go.  The responses often meander a bit to one side or the other of the original topic but it is in those very comments that I think a lot of valuable information surfaces that otherwise would not have come up.  I for one appreciate the plethora of responses evoked here and would be greatly disappointed if the answers to a question were short, concise, and right on point.

Just a thought...
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780

Offline Joey R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 698
Re: Cnc machining flintlock barrel and lock
« Reply #44 on: January 28, 2018, 06:42:09 AM »
Well said Dave.
Joey.....Don’t ever ever ever give up! Winston Churchill

westbj2

  • Guest
Re: Cnc machining flintlock barrel and lock
« Reply #45 on: January 28, 2018, 02:00:07 PM »

The late John Bivins saw a need to enhance the number of rifles he could build for the Pennsylvania Bi-Centennial contract in the late 1970's.  John was a traditionalist in passion, study and practice so his use of a sophisticated pantograph in stock making seems a bit in-congruent at first glance.  John referred to the pantograph as "my mechanical apprentice".
Nearly 50 years later, CNC machining has come on the scene making the pantograph of Bivins day seem a bit primitive. Witness what Jim Kibler has been able to achieve with his mechanical apprentice.
My interest is in best quality British locks, especially percussion locks of the mid 19th century.  I think CNC machining applied to lockmaking is best also understood as a mechanical apprentice.  I have used CNC technology and in some cases I could not have produced a better outcome by traditional hand work.  There is however, a range of work in these locks not suited to CNC application.  Small quantities, surface finish, minute detail and precision fitting come to mind.
So, the moral of this story I suppose is don't fight technology but try to use what is applicable to your needs.
Jim

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9635
Re: Cnc machining flintlock barrel and lock
« Reply #46 on: January 29, 2018, 05:32:11 PM »
I do mostly bench work in making locks and triggers but certainly see the advantages
of CNC and other methods of manufacture.Production in quantity made the automobile
something most of us could afford.However,the really interesting ones came from the
custom shops catering to those who are not cost conscious of anything.
When I got interested in muzzle loading rifles I was about 15 years old and that expanded
to other forms of guns,mostly black powder. Automobiles became a strong interest at 16
when I helped a man,Don Thompson put an intake manifold on a straight 8 "J"Duesenberg.
It was a LeBaron custom built from bumper to bumper.We were friends until his death in
2009.As a new car,this LeBaron phaeton was out of reach for 99% of the car market but
it was and is a magnificent relic of a day none of us wants to repeat.
Like westbj2,my interest in lock making was stimulated by the fine English locks that were
and are not aimed at budget minded buyers.The late (20 years next month)Lynton McKenzie
offered help to me as I tried to gather the skill set needed to even come close to these gun
related relics of another long gone time.Lynton loaned me a Stanton lock much like the one
recently featured here and I was able to copy it to the point that my hand made parts were
interchangeable with the antique lock.I think I have made about 30 since 1987 and 7 more
smaller ones for rook or boys rifles and again,Lynton McKenzie furnished a fine pattern lock
he removed from a Whitworth boy's rifle in his collection.When Lynton heard I had been asked
by a German shop to make flint locks for a target pistol he sent me a superb Henry Nock flint
lock from the right side of a double gun to use as a study and guide.I called him and asked him
if he was in the habit of sending parts from valuable relics to people he had never met and knew
little about and he said he had talked to others who knew me and wasn't worried.He also knew
I was able to take care of fine relics because he had done a minor cosmetic restoration on the
Whitworth/Henry .451 I shot for 11 years.When he told me the serial#I told him of my long use
of that same rifle and he complimented me on the way I preserved it over long use.
The Henry Nock flintlock was a huge help with that German project and credit must also be given
to Dave Riplinger at TOW for furnishing the moulds for the plate,cock and frizzen for the Bailes
lock which was nearly identical to the Nock.They now reside with Les Barber who does lock and
trigger assembly for R.E.Davis Co.at the Mould and Gun Shop.
R.E.Davis,the founder/owner also bought the first of the 4 pin locks I made in 1987 at the Spring
shoot in Friendship,Ind.

Bob Roller

Offline Chris Evrard

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 151
Re: Cnc machining flintlock barrel and lock
« Reply #47 on: January 29, 2018, 06:16:43 PM »
This conversation is right up my alley. I am a former cnc machinist. Right now i am building a new shop, and plan to add cnc capabilities to that shop. I already have one test machine and have put some time into "blueprinting" tumblers among other things. Looks like there are a lot of similar minds working on these projects. I can't wait to see where it all goes. The 3d models Chris Laubach has produced are great! One thing is certain, our parts will get better and better and the variety will increase.

Chris E.