Define difference in locks!!

[Roger Fisher]

Boring rainy day so I'll throw this out there.  Always fuzzy on how to tell the difference between an English lock and a Germanic lock.   Any clearly defined way to tell    Uninformed minds need to know

[Benedict]

English round plates and pans, German flat plates and pans, except where they are not.  Take a look at the articles in Shumways book Longrifle Articles Vol II, there are some good articles that may help and may confuse.

Bruce

[David Rase]

Boring rainy day so I'll throw this out there.  Always fuzzy on how to tell the difference between an English lock and a Germanic lock.   Any clearly defined way to tell    Uninformed minds need to know

Might as well throw in the French and make it real confusing.
DMR

[Stophel]

It's kind of like saying "how do you tell the difference between a Rembrandt, and a Rubens?"  (the first two artists that I could think of... ).   There's not really a point-by-point distinction guide that can be given.  It's a matter of discernment.  You just have to study the different styles and forms.

[G-Man]

There are some good photos of really good examples of original English flintlocks  (and a few others) of various styles on Gary Brumfield's and Jack Brooks' websites. 

Looking at locks on original guns in the books, like RCA, you have to be careful because so many have been reconverted, and the reconversion parts are often not representative of what was originally on the piece.

Guy

[Stophel]

I have a few online you can peruse:


A Dutch rifle.


A flat faced lock on a Dutch fowler.


Here's a German flat faced lock.  With a rounded pan....with a squared end...and a bridle.  ca 1750, give or take a decade.


A German round faced lock.  Ca 1720 or earlier.


Just for the heck of it, here's a Spanish gun:


I don't have any English locks online, nor do I have a decent photo of a more common style of German flat faced lock.

The Germans tended to keep the round faced locks for themselves, using them throughout the 18th century (into the 19th), sending us the cheaper-to-produce flat faced locks.

[Nate McKenzie]

Keeping it simple - German locks look much like a Siler. English locks look much like a Chambers late Ketland or round faced English lock.

[rich pierce]

Can we generalize that German locks often had a separate pan and English locks had the pan welded on, or is that a non-distinguishing rule as well?

I'm having deja vu all over again as I think we discussed this last year.  I think most people want to know about Germanic export locks versus English export locks used to build American-made arms.  If that is the case and we are talking about 1740-1800:

• Round-faced export locks will be English or Dutch 99% of the time.
• Export locks with flat plates and flat cocks and rounded pans will be English 95% of the time..
• Export locks with flat plates and faceted pans will be Germanic 95% of the time..
• Anything with a waterproof pan will be English 99% of the time.

Is that close or fair?

[Roger Fisher]

Can we generalize that German locks often had a separate pan and English locks had the pan welded on, or is that a non-distinguishing rule as well?

I'm having deja vu all over again as I think we discussed this last year.  I think most people want to know about Germanic export locks versus English export locks used to build American-made arms.  If that is the case and we are talking about 1740-1800:

• Round-faced export locks will be English or Dutch 99% of the time.
• Export locks with flat plates and flat cocks and rounded pans will be English 95% of the time..
• Export locks with flat plates and faceted pans will be Germanic 95% of the time..
• Anything with a waterproof pan will be English 99% of the time.

Is that close or fair?

Very close and yes export to us locks was the question, and thanks for the info.  It's always good to have younger folks to help out an ol guy

[Stophel]

German/Continental locks will generally have separate pans.

The commoner styles of German locks, exported to America are flat faced, usually, but not always, with file slashes across the tail.  Usually without bridles, but on occasion, with them, more so towards the end of the 18th century.  GENERALLY, the frizzen springs are mounted with a screw from inside the plate, so you can't see a screw.  It's rare to see a German round faced lock on an American gun, but there are a few.

English locks, commonly seen on American guns look kind of the same, flat and round.  Just one has a flat lockplate and cock, the other has  a rounded lockplate and cock.  Pans are usually both rounded.  Frizzen springs are GENERALLY mounted with a visible screw from the outside.  There are other styles of English locks.  The nicer round locks have big, swoopy pans with bridles.

A Prussian musket lock:


A couple of German locks:




A couple of English round locks:

[ptk1126]

Does anyone have pix of English flintlocks (non-dog lock) of the 1670-1690 period ?

Something that a well-to-do early Colonial might have used in the Indian wars of that time ?

Thanks
Paul

[Stophel]

the English were pretty much copying the Dutch for their gun and lock designs (which is why the Brown Bess looks so Dutch!).  Late 17th/early 18th century English round faced locks are often dead ringers for their Dutch counterparts.

The Rifle Shoppe makes several late 17th century English lock sets.  They may or may not have them shown on their website.

Think round and bulbous. 

[Jim Kibler]

Does anyone have pix of English flintlocks (non-dog lock) of the 1670-1690 period ?

Something that a well-to-do early Colonial might have used in the Indian wars of that time ?

Thanks
Paul

This link may help.  http://www.reenactor.ru/ARH/PDF/A._D._Darling.pdf

The French had a very large impact on English gunmaking towards the end of the 17th century.  Especially after the publishing of the Simonin prints and  the influx of French gunsmiths after the revocation of the edict of Nantes.

[Jim Kibler]

Does anyone have pix of English flintlocks (non-dog lock) of the 1670-1690 period ?

Something that a well-to-do early Colonial might have used in the Indian wars of that time ?

Thanks
Paul

Here is another link to an English pistol likely from the late seventeenth century. 

http://www.bonhams.com/cgi-bin/public.sh/pubweb/publicSite.r?sContinent=EUR&screen=lotdetailsNoFlash&iSaleItemNo=3373950&iSaleNo=13648&iSaleSectionNo=1#

If you scour the net, you can find others.  Decorated firearms by Gusler and Lavin, The Art of the Gunmaker by Hayward and Great British Gunmakers are other references that come to mind.  Oh, make sure you check out the cool zoom feature the Bonhams site has.

[ptk1126]

Thanks to all for the info.
I have read somewhere that the first true English flintlock appeared around 1680 and
that the Samuel Oakes pattern of 1681 for the Hudson Bay Company was the basis for
many subsequent guns. Are there any known pix of this ?

All the best
Paul

[J. Talbert]

Jim,

It's just like shopping the LL Bean website... only cooler merchandise   

Jeff