Author Topic: A Pair of Patchboxes Possibly From Kentucky - What Do You Think?  (Read 3599 times)

Offline Tanselman

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Pictured below are two patchboxes. The darker stocked rifle is signed "G. Mefford" in script, an early Kentucky gunmaker from Maysville, KY. The lighter stocked rifle has a number of Kentucky details on it from north central Kentucky, the general region the first rifle was made in, but the gun is unsigned and a somewhat later rifle. Its box appears to be a little later than the Mefford box, and probably taken from an earlier damaged rifle and re-mounted on this gun. Both guns have issues, but the two questions I'd like to get your thoughts on are:

1. Has anyone seen a similar box, and if so, was the gun signed?   If not, where was it most likely made?

2. Do these two boxes look similar enough that they could have been made by the same gunsmith, perhaps a few years apart?

I would appreciate your thoughts on this eagle finial patchbox...particularly if you have seen a similar box.

Shelby Gallien

 



« Last Edit: January 09, 2021, 12:01:43 AM by Tanselman »

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: A Pair of Patchboxes Possibly From Kentucky - What Do You Think?
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2021, 03:12:27 PM »
That box on the top is a Derringer trade rifle box, have seen it on guns stamped both on the barrel and on the lockplate.  Almost to the exact 'hasty' engraving, too.
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Offline WESTbury

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Re: A Pair of Patchboxes Possibly From Kentucky - What Do You Think?
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2021, 04:01:12 PM »
Eric is 100% correct, as usual, on the Deringer patchbox. The lower one may also be a Deringer but "FANCIFIED".

Below is a photo of a Deringer trade rifle.

"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
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Offline smylee grouch

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Re: A Pair of Patchboxes Possibly From Kentucky - What Do You Think?
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2021, 06:10:55 PM »
I think Jim Gordon has a few of those trade rifles in his collection in Glorieta, NM. and pictures of them in his three volume book set on early western guns.

Offline JTR

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Re: A Pair of Patchboxes Possibly From Kentucky - What Do You Think?
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2021, 07:03:13 PM »
Here's another Philla Eagle patchbox, this one stamped in caps on the barrel, L. (Lewis) Ghriskey. Phila

 



John Robbins

Offline cshirsch

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Re: A Pair of Patchboxes Possibly From Kentucky - What Do You Think?
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2021, 10:30:58 PM »
Dumond








Offline Tanselman

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Re: A Pair of Patchboxes Possibly From Kentucky - What Do You Think?
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2021, 12:13:50 AM »
Thank you guys for the responses and pictures. I am currently in Florida, my library is up north, so I need help on this one. I have three more questions:

1. Could Mefford have seen and copied a Philadelphis box for his rifle? How early were these Deringer or Philadelphia boxes made, since Mefford died in 1814?

2. How consistent were the side leaves on Deringer boxes, since no two look alike to me.

3. Were the boxes sold commercially to other gunsmiths?

Thanks,  Shelby Gallien

Offline jdm

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Re: A Pair of Patchboxes Possibly From Kentucky - What Do You Think?
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2021, 02:46:40 AM »
Shelby,  Mefford  died soon after  Derringer got rolling on these. Deringer's first contract was in 1809.  I don't believe your box is a Deringer  box . Similar but not his. The first box is close the second no cigar.
Didn't Jack Ferrel give you family information on Mefford years ago? Wasn't he a scout or guide ?  Maybe I'm thinking of a different gunsmith.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2021, 03:14:39 AM by jdm »
JIM

Offline Elnathan

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Re: A Pair of Patchboxes Possibly From Kentucky - What Do You Think?
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2021, 05:46:30 AM »
Here's another Philla Eagle patchbox, this one stamped in caps on the barrel, L. (Lewis) Ghriskey. Phila

 


What book is this picture from?
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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: A Pair of Patchboxes Possibly From Kentucky - What Do You Think?
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2021, 05:51:26 AM »
Can't say much about that second box, but it sure is neat. 

1st box is clearly reused from a previous piece and I'll stand my my opinion that is clearly is a Derringer box. They were not all identical and everything I see in that box - style, shaping, engraving - says Derringer shop to my mind.

Chris that 'Dumond' rifle is very interesting.  What do you know about it and the name on the barrel?
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Offline Tanselman

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Re: A Pair of Patchboxes Possibly From Kentucky - What Do You Think?
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2021, 06:14:41 AM »
Jim, You have the right gunsmith. George Mefford was a tough frontiersman, friend of Simon Kenton and accompanied Kenton on several forays against Indians. Mefford was in Kentucky in 1783 when hired to lead a surveying party by a wealthy easterner. He permanently settled his family in KY in 1785. He was an important early citizen of Maysville [then Limestone] and was the first settler brave enough to build a home outside of the fort.

Jack Ferrel was a direct descendant of Mefford, and his life's dream was to acquire a Mefford rifle. We knew of two Thomas Mefford signed guns [George's son] back them, neither available, but hadn't seen a signed George Mefford rifle yet, despite Mefford working as a gunsmith for most of his years there. Jack did share what information he had on the Mefford line, but it was "sketchy" on George Mefford. We've learned a lot more since then.

Mefford was an important and very early gunsmith in Kentucky. The first couple of rifles to appear with his name were fakes, probably by local people wanting a fantasy piece. Since then, I've seen a modern restocked rifle using an original signed George Mefford barrel, and a second and probably original rifle with the box I posted above. I don't know if the box is original to the rifle, or a later addition to enhance its value. It had undocumented restoration done to it, and modern butt carving to enhance its value, damaging an otherwise original [probably] Mefford rifle. I'd like to determine if the eagle finial box on this rifle came from somewhere else and was a later "enhancement" addition as well, or whether Mefford might have seen a similar box and actually made the box himself. I have never seen a similar box to the one on the signed Mefford rifle...so I am hoping it might be an original box on the gun, just modern steel screws since the box was removed during restoration.

 Shelby Gallien
« Last Edit: January 09, 2021, 07:20:39 AM by Tanselman »

Offline Elnathan

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Re: A Pair of Patchboxes Possibly From Kentucky - What Do You Think?
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2021, 04:08:58 PM »
Shelby,

Is it possible that the sideplates on the Mefford box are replacements? They doesn't seem to quite match the rest of the box. Some of it looks like they might have been engraved at some point and had the engraving filed away, which might indicate that the box was originally on a different rifle, but the overall shaping is rather poor, and it seems hard to believe that the man who engraved those serpents on the lid couldn't get those scrolls on the sides to flow a bit better. Inletting seems a bit better on the finale, too, though I might be imagining things.  I'm wondering if the box was original but the sideplates were lost at some point, and the "restorer" made and installed new ones using a rubbing from the original inlets as a pattern or something like that.

Taking the box off entirely and comparing the condition of the wood and the edges of the inletting for the sideplates and the finale might be informative.

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Offline cshirsch

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Re: A Pair of Patchboxes Possibly From Kentucky - What Do You Think?
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2021, 05:44:47 PM »
Can't say much about that second box, but it sure is neat. 

1st box is clearly reused from a previous piece and I'll stand my my opinion that is clearly is a Derringer box. They were not all identical and everything I see in that box - style, shaping, engraving - says Derringer shop to my mind.

Chris that 'Dumond' rifle is very interesting.  What do you know about it and the name on the barrel?

My thoughts are that it is a New England made rifle, maybe York York.  I bought it many years ago from Flayderman. 

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: A Pair of Patchboxes Possibly From Kentucky - What Do You Think?
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2021, 07:52:22 PM »
It does have a very NE look about it.  Do you think the box could have been re-used, or even the barrel perhaps?  I'm assuming that you had it apart.  Any information on that name?
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline cshirsch

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Re: A Pair of Patchboxes Possibly From Kentucky - What Do You Think?
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2021, 08:01:01 PM »
It does have a very NE look about it.  Do you think the box could have been re-used, or even the barrel perhaps?  I'm assuming that you had it apart.  Any information on that name?

It's all original.  There a William A. Dumond in New York City in the 1830s and probably before.

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: A Pair of Patchboxes Possibly From Kentucky - What Do You Think?
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2021, 08:37:23 PM »
Interesting!  Any information on this guy making trade rifles?  Given the box design, I wonder if it was intended as a rifle for western trade/sale.  The timing you mention is perfect.
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline JTR

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Re: A Pair of Patchboxes Possibly From Kentucky - What Do You Think?
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2021, 08:57:10 PM »
Here's another Philla Eagle patchbox, this one stamped in caps on the barrel, L. (Lewis) Ghriskey. Phila

 


What book is this picture from?


It's in one of Jim Whiskers books, but I forget which one.
I owned the rifle at the time and have several pictures of it. If you'd like, I can send them to you. Or start a new thread here with them?
John
John Robbins

Offline jdm

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Re: A Pair of Patchboxes Possibly From Kentucky - What Do You Think?
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2021, 11:26:24 PM »
Here's another Philla Eagle patchbox, this one stamped in caps on the barrel, L. (Lewis) Ghriskey. Phila

 


What book is this picture from?


It's in one of Jim Whiskers books, but I forget which one.
I owned the rifle at the time and have several pictures of it. If you'd like, I can send them to you. Or start a new thread here with them?
John



Please start a new thread on this one . I think it would be interesting also.
JIM

Offline Elnathan

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Re: A Pair of Patchboxes Possibly From Kentucky - What Do You Think?
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2021, 12:55:15 AM »
It's in one of Jim Whiskers books, but I forget which one.
I owned the rifle at the time and have several pictures of it. If you'd like, I can send them to you. Or start a new thread here with them?
John

I figured it was one of Whisker's books, but was kind of curious to know which one might have pictures of Philadelphia rifles. I certainly wouldn't mind seeing the rest of the rifle, though, as I like that patchbox. If you are willing, I think a new thread would be the best way, as it looks like others besides myself are interested. Thanks.
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

Offline mr. no gold

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Re: A Pair of Patchboxes Possibly From Kentucky - What Do You Think?
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2021, 02:26:20 AM »
Try Chandler & Whisker, "Behold the Long Rifle;" Olde Bedford Village Press, 1993. On Page 118 a Lewis Ghriskey rifle is shown. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot known about him, but he appears to have been a very accomplished builder. Whisker lists him as working from 1812 through 1819 in Philadelphia.
Dick

Offline JTR

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Re: A Pair of Patchboxes Possibly From Kentucky - What Do You Think?
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2021, 07:35:56 PM »
Try Chandler & Whisker, "Behold the Long Rifle;" Olde Bedford Village Press, 1993. On Page 118 a Lewis Ghriskey rifle is shown. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot known about him, but he appears to have been a very accomplished builder. Whisker lists him as working from 1812 through 1819 in Philadelphia.
Dick

Thanks for the book name update.
John
John Robbins

Offline Elnathan

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Re: A Pair of Patchboxes Possibly From Kentucky - What Do You Think?
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2021, 07:43:08 PM »
Try Chandler & Whisker, "Behold the Long Rifle;" Olde Bedford Village Press, 1993. On Page 118 a Lewis Ghriskey rifle is shown. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot known about him, but he appears to have been a very accomplished builder. Whisker lists him as working from 1812 through 1819 in Philadelphia.
Dick

Thank you. I actually own that book, but it is currently in storage in one of 30-40 unmarked book boxes and consequently difficult to access.
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

Offline JTR

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Re: A Pair of Patchboxes Possibly From Kentucky - What Do You Think?
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2021, 09:43:45 PM »
As you might remember, the two Behold books don't concentrate on any particular area or school of gun maker. A quick look through mine didn't show any other Philla makers around page 118.
I have several B &W pictures of the gun from when I owned it. I'll get them together and post them in a new thread for any interested.
I sold that rifle about 20 years ago through Mike D'Ambra; Maybe someone here owns it now? 
« Last Edit: January 10, 2021, 09:54:33 PM by JTR »
John Robbins