Author Topic: A couple more newbie questions  (Read 5348 times)

Offline hatman

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A couple more newbie questions
« on: August 20, 2016, 03:28:35 AM »
Let me preface by saying I'm really happy I found ALR.  An amazing amount of knowledgable and experienced folks here and I've learned so much.  Out here in Western WA flintlocks are an anomaly, but I'm deeply smitten.  I just don't have anyone at the range to ask newbie questions.

Noob question #1:  Is there any correlation between barrel length and powder charge given the same caliber and (round ball) twist rate?

Noob question #2:  If I wanted to try out .020 patch thickness is there any disadvantage to using two .010 lubed patches vs a single .020 of the same material?

Thanks guys.

Online smylee grouch

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Re: A couple more newbie questions
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2016, 05:54:38 AM »
Hi Hatman, that double patch business has been on my mind too and I was going to try shooting both combos this summer to find out but never got around to it. Looks like you will have to try both and report back to us how it went.  Might be an interesting experiment.  ;D

Offline L. Akers

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Re: A couple more newbie questions
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2016, 06:34:56 AM »
Black powder has a constant burn rate so only so much powder can be burned in a length of barrel.  A longer barrel can burn more powder than one that is shorter (given the same caliber).  If a charge of powder is greater than can be consumed in the length of barrel, the excess un-burned powder is blown out the muzzle behind the ball and patch and mostly ignited outside the muzzle.

I've never tried double-patching a ball so I can't help you there.

Online bob in the woods

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Re: A couple more newbie questions
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2016, 06:57:18 AM »
Back in June I took my .40 cal to a match, only to discover that I forgot to replenish the patching in my pouch.
I didn't have enough with me, so I borrowed some. My friend was using the store bought pre-cut patches, and they were probably .010 to .012    I doubled them, and found they worked OK.  Not my first choice, but worth trying.

Offline Daryl

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Re: A couple more newbie questions
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2016, 08:55:07 AM »
If you are stuck - or like me, just wanted to try something different - they will work - as shown here.

Here's A 5-SHOT- well, actually 6 shot group using 2, .017" patches with a Wheel Weight (hard) .662" ball.  The second group is a 10 shot group using the rifle's  normal .030" patch and a .678" ball, only of pure, or dead soft lead. Looks pretty even to me. Both at 50 yards from a rest, using a 14 bore rifle (.69"). The rifle shoots the same with the .030" (12 ounce) denim patch & the larger normal .682" ball.(a note, also that this load grouped into 2" at 100 yards or meters)



« Last Edit: August 20, 2016, 08:56:48 AM by Daryl »
Daryl

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Offline Bob Roller

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Re: A couple more newbie questions
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2016, 12:52:24 PM »
Black powder has a constant burn rate so only so much powder can be burned in a length of barrel.  A longer barrel can burn more powder than one that is shorter (given the same caliber).  If a charge of powder is greater than can be consumed in the length of barrel, the excess un-burned powder is blown out the muzzle behind the ball and patch and mostly ignited outside the muzzle.

I've never tried double-patching a ball so I can't help you there.

In his book,"The Muzzle Loading Rifle then and Now"Walter Cline told of a Tennessee bear hunter,L.G.Moore
who would double charge and double patch a 45 caliber ball when hunting them.He said it would drive that ball through both shoulders
and a clean kill.I have never tried this idea but it makes sense to me.

Bob Roller

Offline hatman

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Re: A couple more newbie questions
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2016, 06:07:58 AM »
Hi Hatman, that double patch business has been on my mind too and I was going to try shooting both combos this summer to find out but never got around to it. Looks like you will have to try both and report back to us how it went.  Might be an interesting experiment.  ;D

Hi smylee,
Based on all the responses so far, I'll do just that.  :)

I'd still like to read more about barrel length vs BP charge.

Online smylee grouch

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Re: A couple more newbie questions
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2016, 06:16:06 AM »
Hi Hatman. It's been quite a few years but I think someone has done some barrel length testing like you ask about. If I remember right they started with a long barrel-tested velocity then cut some off and shot-tested velocity, etc.,etc. I just cant remember who-when this was done and if it was done with only one cal. or more.

Offline Mike_StL

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Re: A couple more newbie questions
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2016, 03:49:12 PM »
If I remember correctly,  a test was conducted and the results are printed in the Dixie Gun Works catalog.

Velocity drops as the barrel length decreases.

Offline WadePatton

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Re: A couple more newbie questions
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2016, 05:43:07 PM »
One can make good use of the action of doubling patches in two cases as I see it.  First when, as others have mentioned above he/she has runt out of the normal patches for the gun being shot and has to borrow or press into service some thinner materials.  SECOND when the shooter is developing the best load for a new gun and is working out patch thickness for the best ball/patch/bore matchup.  AT that point it might be good to have a second, knickers thickness material on hand-along with various thicker patches (normal denim/duck/canvas) in order to find the best TOTAL thickness for loading that bbl with the particular diameter balls on hand.  Then the shooter can match that thickness to a single material next time he goes patch shopping.

Because I submit that it's simpler to shop with precision measuring devices than to cut, keep up with, lube, and poke double patching down the bore each time.


The style of the gun determines my bbl length as it does most around here.

There is a basic inescapable rule in bp ballistics: bigger is more and more is bigger. (longer is more bigger)  ;)
« Last Edit: August 21, 2016, 05:54:54 PM by WadePatton »
Hold to the Wind

Smoketown

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Re: A couple more newbie questions
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2016, 06:45:39 PM »
One can make good use of the action of doubling patches in two cases as I see it.  First when, as others have mentioned above he/she has runt out of the normal patches for the gun being shot and has to borrow or press into service some thinner materials.  SECOND when the shooter is developing the best load for a new gun and is working out patch thickness for the best ball/patch/bore matchup.  AT that point it might be good to have a second, knickers thickness material on hand-along with various thicker patches (normal denim/duck/canvas) in order to find the best TOTAL thickness for loading that bbl with the particular diameter balls on hand.  Then the shooter can match that thickness to a single material next time he goes patch shopping.

Because I submit that it's simpler to shop with precision measuring devices than to cut, keep up with, lube, and poke double patching down the bore each time.


The style of the gun determines my bbl length as it does most around here.

There is a basic inescapable rule in bp ballistics: bigger is more and more is bigger. (longer is more bigger)  ;)


Rolling papers work great.

Your wifes or girl friends panty hose works too. As does her drawers.

(Unfortunately, my wife wears 'granny panties' and they're as thick as my 'tighty whities'!)

Just make sure that what ever you use for 'shimming the patch' goes between the patch and ball ... NOT against the powder!!

Oncet the gun is shootin' like it's a'pposed ta, THEN, I use the precision measuring device and go shopping for material.   ;)

Love the regional dialect Wade. My folk woulda said "mo' is betta" or, '"mo be betta".   ;D

Cheers,
Smoketown

Offline retired fella

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Re: A couple more newbie questions
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2016, 11:22:55 PM »
You got more nerve than I if you are stuffing other than pure cotton down your barrel.

Offline hatman

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Re: A couple more newbie questions
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2016, 06:34:06 AM »
You got more nerve than I if you are stuffing other than pure cotton down your barrel.

Static?

Smoketown

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Re: A couple more newbie questions
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2016, 08:04:02 AM »
You got more nerve than I if you are stuffing other than pure cotton down your barrel.

It's a practice that roundball shooters have been using for years.

If done correctly, nothing but 'pure cotton' will contact your barrel.

Cheers,
Smoketown


Online smylee grouch

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Re: A couple more newbie questions
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2016, 02:50:27 PM »
Synthetic material I've been told will melt in the bore and cause problems. I don't think the water cleaning method would remove the melted stuff from the sides of the bore and then would create a place for rust to form under the melted material so I've been told.

Offline retired fella

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Re: A couple more newbie questions
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2016, 12:24:33 AM »
I confess that I learned something new, but, I think I will stay with the cotton.  If it works for you, go for it.

Smoketown

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Re: A couple more newbie questions
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2016, 02:21:21 AM »
Synthetic material I've been told will melt in the bore and cause problems. I don't think the water cleaning method would remove the melted stuff from the sides of the bore and then would create a place for rust to form under the melted material so I've been told.

You are correct ... That's why you ALWAYS burn with a flame, a sample of your patching material before you buy it or shoot it.

As taught to me in 1972 - To see if thicker patching would be more accurate in your rifle.

1. Place your lubricated COTTON patching material across muzzle, place 'rolling paper(s)' or other 'shimming material' (panty hose, bed sheet or whatever) on TOP of the COTTON patching.

2. Start the ball FLUSH into the muzzle (my instructor used the pommel of his a Ka-Bar).  :o

3. Trim the interior 'shimming material'. Rolling papers would be torn and panty hose if used, was twisted and cut at the top of the ball.

4. The short stud on the short starter was then used to push the ball to below flush and the COTTON patch material was trimmed at the muzzle - with the Ka-Bar.  ;)

5. Finish loading and fire as you normally would.

If done as explained, (which takes longer to explain than to actually do) only 'Pure Cotton' ever comes in contact with the bore.

To get back on topic, as all barrels are not created equal, you CAN double patch to make the ball fit the barrel.


Cheers,
Smoketown














Joe S

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Re: A couple more newbie questions
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2016, 03:13:08 AM »
Quote
Noob question #1:  Is there any correlation between barrel length and powder charge given the same caliber and (round ball) twist rate?

Beyond 28" barrel length you gain about 10 feet/second per inch of barrel up to about 42". I don't know of any data beyond that point. 

Offline Daryl

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Re: A couple more newbie questions
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2016, 08:28:44 PM »
Referencing Lyman's old "Black Powder Handbook" will show quite readily the difference in load velocity from about 22" length up to 42" of barrel.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 08:22:29 AM by Daryl »
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V