Help with research before a build/decision making process

[dwr435]

Sorry for showing my ignorance other than looks what was the crescent shaped but style for?  I have to imagine if it had no practical use that the Hawken brothers and others of the time, who took input from the returning trappers etc, about what they wanted and the latter models would have been different. 

Before the shotgun style but suggestion i was contemplating making a slip on recoil reducer, cut up different densities of rubber and stack them in a buckskin slip on but cover/sling attachment point.  Just put it on to hunt and remove to hang on wall.

Was also wondering about drilling out part of the stock under the but plate and install some sort of recoil reducer inside the stock so it would not affect the look of the rifle.

Thanks again for the suggestions

[Joe S.]

well if your going to drill out the stock for a "recoil reducer" you might as well magna port the barrel as well,LOL! a big stout lad like yourself shouldn't be worried about a little push back from a shootin iron

[dwr435]

Not worried, just curious.  I really wont shoot it enough for it to be an issue.  Enough to remain proficient through out the year, a little more when gearing up for the season.

Definitely don't want to ruin something before I even get to enjoy it.

[Clark Badgett]

I've never found most BP rifles to have much in the way of painful, jarring recoil. Maybe I just shoot enough modern stuff, that the BP just sorta seems mild, even in my BPCR rifle.

[Daryl]

Not worried, just curious.  I really wont shoot it enough for it to be an issue.  Enough to remain proficient through out the year, a little more when gearing up for the season.

Definitely don't want to ruin something before I even get to enjoy it.

Some time back, in the late 70's, Taylor built me a .58 Hawken with the normal hooked butt plate.  That particular barrel shot best with 140gr. 2F, a .022 denim patch and a .575" 285gr. round ball.  I also experimented in it 60" twist with most of the minnie bullets Lyman sold moulds for- from the Original Style 460gr. 485 after I modified the plug, through the 505 gr., turned into a 525gr., to the 570gr. turned into a roaring 675gr. bullet - with charges from 100gr. to 160gr. with the big one running 1,325fps.  It kicked me quite thoroughly, but then even the round balls with 140gr. wore me down. I foolishly sold it to a friend in Terrace, BC. for no where near enough money.
Here's that rifle.  It was murder on grouse with either round ball or an ounce of 7 1/2's. I used only 70gr. 2f with the shot charge. The round ball, loaded for moose, always had 140gr. behind it.  The rifle still kicked pretty hard, even for a young lad like me - then.





The English styled gun I show a lot here, I'm @!*% proud of. Taylor built that one too, in 1986 after I'd read Forsyth several times and got the parts together, although I finished it, fine sanding and true oil, seems to me. She's had well over a couple hundred pounds of lead through her (over 3,000 balls) and it's an easy rifle to shoot due to the shotgun butt, compared to the .58 Hawken's hooked plate. The .58 wore me down with round ball using 140gr.  For many years, I shot only the hunting charge out of the .69 (14 bore) - that being 165gr. 2F.  It is quite simply, an easy rifle to shoot & although it will bend you over a bit with it's climb, it's 2" wide almost flat plate is not painful like the narrow & rounded steel butt plate of a Hawken.

[Nordnecker]

One of my rifles is a Tenn style with a very pronounced crescent butt. Shooting it is a joy. It might seem unintuitive, but the crescent shape wraps around your upper arm muscle, not your bicep, not against your shoulder. It's a very positive fit. To me, it helps with aiming. It provides good control up and down instead of slipping one way or another.  It's just the opposite of a shotgun type butt that comes to your shoulder easily. It's all very subtle geometry, ergonometry I suppose.
A friend of mine has one of those Hampshire Co. rifles with a lot of drop, roman nose and not so crescent butt plates. It is very strange to shoulder this gun. You have to bring it out in front of you and swing it sort of down and into your shoulder. You could never snap shoot this gun. But once it gets into position it's very easy to aim. Lots to think about.......

[WadePatton]

Please do not make your buttstock style decisions based on some notions of recoil.

If you want less recoil, get a 50 or 54, and make it heavy.  Maybe you can find some BP shooters in your area with larger bores to try?

My rifle is 54 with a TN-style crescent buttplate.  The only time I ever noticed recoil was from a double-charge. 

Back in the day(when i shot smokeless), for shooting bigger guns at targets, I used a very high table such that on can get good accuracy whilst standing.  A standing body moves easier in recoil. 

The crescent does not go against the shoulder. 

[oldtravler61]

Couple things to ponder. If the gun fits you. Felt recoil is greatly reduced. A 54 will kill anything on this continent if you do your part with shot placement. Also I would suggest you get the closest to historically correct as possible. Latter on it will be much appreciated. Otherwise Traditions an a few others make hawken style (short of kits) so the choice is really up to you.

[dwr435]

I had read a description of how to use the crescent style but did not understand it at the time.  Thank you for the explanation.  

It is odd that that with that style it is not good for snap shooting, i just say that because that is actually what i thought it might be for, as the "mountain men"  went with shorter barrels for quicker handling rifles, or at least that is a common theme on internet posts in other areas.

Not challenging your statement just pointing out my misconception from readings.  I have never owned one so wouldn't know.

Only BP i have shot is my dad's Long Rifle and pistol, and my Grand pa's long rifle.  Both with out but plates and simple profiles.

Thanks for all the info.

I wont make my decision solely on recoil, especially since i really wont be shooting it a ton.  Thank you for all the input i appreciate it.

It will take me quite some time to get to a finished design and even longer till i have a finished product.  When i bought my last shotgun, it took me 6 months to research which one I wanted and then almost another year to find it in the barrel length, camo pattern, and price level i wanted.  I am real slow when it comes to figuring out exactly what i want but i like to try and make sure i have exactly what i want before i drop the money.

Thanks again for all the reading and suggestions and opinions i really appreciate it.

[flinchrocket]

The Cody Firearms Museum have several original Hawkens that you can view online. Definitely worth
checking out!

[dwr435]

Thanks went there when i was like 13/14 when we visited Yellowstone.  Hit every museum and national park my parents could find over the course of a month, driving across the country.   Spent about 4 days in cody fishing and going to the museums.

[Joe S.]

I believe it's all in how your rifle fits you.while a cresent plate may not fit one person its comfortable on the next.Cresent plates always seem to just fit me the same as a shot gun style,really no different. Maybe the cresent even feels a little more comfortable but that just me,to each his own.As far as recoil I think Clark has a point,I shot many more rounds from modern rifles and shot guns and find the recoil from them much more sharp if that makes sense. The recoil from muzzleloaders seem to be more of a push back,some more than others.Of course how you shoulder your rifle will have something to do with how your going to handle recoil.You hold a thumper out on your outer part of your shoulder,bicep area your going to feel it more than if you have it tucked tight between you shoulder and peck.

[dwr435]

Is there a different method for figuring length of pull for a Hawken or other crescent shaped butt stock? 

I have read two different versions of figuring it for most rifles, to the middle of the top pad of the trigger finger, or to the middle of the pad when the finger is bent like in activating a trigger.

         These two methods make my LOP 15 or 16 inches depending on whether the finger is bent or not.
               Would LOP affect your stock options?

[oldtravler61]

Just remember that when your hunting. You normally wear heavier clothes. That might change your length of pull. Best to go places where they shoot or have muzzeloaders an see what you like or dislike. Nothing beats hands on experience IMHO. An you will answer 90 percent of your questions. An hopefully end up with the gun you want. But then why just have one.

[WadePatton]

Is there a different method for figuring length of pull for a Hawken or other crescent shaped butt stock? 

I have read two different versions of figuring it for most rifles, to the middle of the top pad of the trigger finger, or to the middle of the pad when the finger is bent like in activating a trigger.

         These two methods make my LOP 15 or 16 inches depending on whether the finger is bent or not.
               Would LOP affect your stock options?

I built a longrifle mockup from 2x4's glued together (seam forms a centreline) and very roughly shaped to test LOP and castoff before I built my first.  Used a nail for "trigger" and hose-clamped a hunk of steel rod out front to get the balance proper.  Doing something like this may help you as well.  Measure to the deepest part of your crescent.

Methinks it's much safer to make judgments from 3D models than from paper and the printed word.  ALSO that it's a fair bit easier to shorten a butt than to lengthen it.   

[dwr435]

What are the diferences between a Hawken and a Dimick?  Does a Dimick still have the same style breech and tang, can you remove the barrel as easy as a hawken?  With the Hawken can you fit two barrels well to the same rifle and have two guns, like a .54 with a fast twist and a .62 with a slow twist?

[Herb]

I have built 15 or 20 Hawkens and have no trouble with the butt plates, having fired thousands of rounds through these rifles, some with 50 grains of powder, most 80 grains or more up to 140 in testing.  There are some Hawken buttplates that I don't like the looks of, but the Jim Bridger butt plate from Track of the Wolf is my favorite.  Here it is on my close copy of Jim Bridger's rifle.  The bottom rifle is a .58 flintlock with a similar shaped buttplate.





I got a butt plate from Muzzleloader Builders Supply, No. 14810, copied from an original.  It is closely similar to Track's BP-Hawk-E-I.  I discovered it has the same shoulder shape as the Bridger buttplate.  I cut 1/2" off the return.  The red outline is the Bridger butt plate.

No trouble with  butt plates on any of these.




[

[Herb]

dwr435, The original Bridger rifle has a length of pull or trigger reach from the center of the deepest part of the crescent to the front trigger of 13 1/4 inches.  So does its near twin, the Kit Carson Hawken.  I built mine the same, and my .58 for offhand shooting with a trigger reach of 12 1/4 inches.  You could have made a hooked breech rifle with interchangeable barrels of different calibers.  In fact, my GRRW .45 Leman Trade Rifle I made in their shop in 1978 I refitted with a .54 caliber barrel for elk hunting.  I made that rifle in a class taught there, and I think it had a trigger reach of about 14 1/4 inches.  I have since cut it off twice and it is still too long.   One more thing, all these rifles I shoot off my shoulder.  I have never shot any off my bicep, not even a Vincent.

[dwr435]

Thank you for all the great pics and info