Author Topic: Cobbling a Cheap Musket II... Using Plastic  (Read 3077 times)

Offline thecapgunkid

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Cobbling a Cheap Musket II... Using Plastic
« on: September 07, 2016, 02:23:47 PM »
When I opened the box on this thing I did not get any surprises.  The "Ranger" Brown Bess was as cheaply put together as I expected.  One look at the barrel and the goo used as grease and I verified my first suspicion....plastic has a definite use when working on a gun.

Here's how....

Take the barrel out of the musket.  Drop a rod down and find the breach.  Clean the goo off the rod.  Mark it and see that the pan is somewhere in the breech.   Drill a hole and find out that the bit does not struggle in the plug but breaks through the barrel, so the plug is mis-shapened at best or there's something else you don't know about it at worst.  Now engaged the plastic.

Log onto the Track Of The Wolf Website.  Put the plastic next to the computer.  Find the Colrain !st Model Barrel and plug.  Punch the numbers off the card onto the order form.  Wait for the truck.

Simple.

What surprised me when I started this, though, was the vehemence and extension of the comments in my other post  ( Cobbling a cheap musket).  Some of the guys opening fire are, in fact, better craftsmen than those who made the original guns back in the eighteenth century,  supplemented by better tools, materials and lighting and having an innate talent that the rest of us have to admire.

Of striking interest was the diagrams of the breechplug/barrel that were contributed.  Also helpful was the recommendation ( albeit in a roundabout fashion) of where to go to get a real barrel, and, unless I get censured or kicked off this forum, I would recommend that these comments be installed permanently.

That's because the gun itself was clearly a pig....to a shooter.  Since there are a lot of relatively new shooters out there who would be lured into this website by the price, there is a legitimate concern over safety.

The website and vendor, however, is not marketing to shooters overtly.  All of the publicity centered around which movie was using what guns.  Having built so many gunbelts for the cowboy shooters and shoes for the reenactors, it was obvious to me that the important thing in the market was the visual.   It was up to me to ensure the craft quality.  Maybe the website should have more pro-actively warned a potential shooter who was likely to put a real bullet into this thing.

In their best moments movies are an illusion.   The guns in them only have to look good. Especially when carried. Anybody who looks closely at the hardware in an historical movies can spot the non-firing replicas, the dumb props from the prop shack  that were not intended to work at all, and the period incorrect.

But that ain't the point here.  The point was to see what I'd have to do to get a pig to fly.  So, I am sorry if I did not explain myself well. 

What I want to get my arms around ( and I don't care how much time I have to spend doing it) is what these guys were thinking in the 18th Century when they won a bid to assembly parts in the armory, or what they had to go through when their rangers got a batch of poor guns.  Where's the unwritten stuff that we won't get to use to answer questions about their culture, or life style, or work practices?

I already know that the inletting is sloppy, the castings flawed,  the Indian Walnut is just this side of Cedar, the lock sparks by destroying flints and the ram rod won't hold up a rose bush. 

If I ever write another book, the part about the journeyman gunsmith will be a little more real.  After all, it is not just the hard facts because the common thread we all have in this is the fascination with the romance of the period.

Ps...I have no idea why I am so thick headed.  Semper Fi, Do or Die, Ooh Rah.


Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Cobbling a Cheap Musket II... Using Plastic
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2016, 02:43:46 PM »
Nothing you personally did. These things made in India things ALWAYS bring out strong negative response. I would imagine by the time you also give up and replace the lock and stock you'll wish you would have just bought a good set of parts and charged ahead. You will have been WAY ahead on the money end.
 BTW, DON"T saw that new colerain bess barrel off to make a ranger gun. This new barrel isn't going to fit in that India stock anyway. Call Hoyt and have him make you a shorty bess barrel to match the outside dimension of the India barrel, at least you may still be able to use the stock that way......Of course the new vent  position in the new barrel isn't going to match up with where the existing lock is.... The farther you go with this the worser it's going to get.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

54ball

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Re: Cobbling a Cheap Musket II... Using Plastic
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2016, 04:05:59 PM »
Somebody needs to hit the gong!

Online okawbow

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Re: Cobbling a Cheap Musket II... Using Plastic
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2016, 06:07:58 PM »
I always have to laugh when I see the responses about India muskets.

I bought a French Infrantry .69 cal from Veteran Arms a few years ago, for my Grandson to use as prop. at a Boy Scout function. I didn't expect anything when it came, but it looked reasonable good and the lock sparked better than anything I'd ever tried. The inletting was good also. I checked the lock internals, and they were hardened.

Every thing looked good, so I decided to test the barrel. I put in 350 grains 3f, 2 wads, and 3 ounces of shot. Measured the barrel in several places, tied it to a tire, and touched it off with a fuse. No change in the barrel diameter, so I tried it again with 2 patched balls. Same result.

Satisfied it was safe; I reworked the stock to come close to right, and shot it to work up a good load. I could keep a 6" group at 50 yards, and even took it out in the late deer season and took a nice doe through the heart at 40 yards.

I'm sure there are some India muskets that are junk, but others seem ok. Not sure they are really worth the money anymore. I got mine while it was considerable cheaper than they are now.
As in life; it’s the journey, not the destination. How you get there matters most.

Offline stuart cee dub

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Re: Cobbling a Cheap Musket II... Using Plastic
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2016, 05:30:20 AM »
 Some of the Italian muskets are only a little better.
My armisport springfield musket started off as a piece of ill fitted pice of junk .And then I discovered acra-glas.
 It's still ugly.The lock and the barrel aren't as issued in Italy anymore but it did turn it into a very good shooter finally.
  Good working flintlocks are actually quite sophisticated .Spring forces and geometry are critical and have to be brought into balance.That's why they are more costly.
  Percussion guns were cheaper and easier to make ,which is the other reason they supplanted flint.
  Many of us learned the hard way too .The learning curve can be pretty steep .Mike Brooks had a good suggestion regarding the barrel. Acraglas can take up the slop if need be.It too is plastic .          
 Keep in mind the possibility of salvaging some of these parts.I rebuilt my first second and third guns from parts from the first basically restocking it till I got something that looked like a real rifle.
 
« Last Edit: September 13, 2016, 05:31:41 AM by stuart cee dub »

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Cobbling a Cheap Musket II... Using Plastic
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2016, 08:08:08 PM »
 Some of the early stuff built in Belgium is every bit as scary.

   Hungry Horse

Offline Daryl

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Re: Cobbling a Cheap Musket II... Using Plastic
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2016, 01:45:01 AM »
The spot welded-in breech plugs out of Japan had me concerned for a while.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline thecapgunkid

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Re: Cobbling a Cheap Musket II... Using Plastic
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2016, 03:22:47 PM »
I was a little reluctant to post this far, because all the comments in the thread have a lot of  value but don't resolve anything.

In the original post I stated that this was sort of a practice project to better my techniques, and I can understand the comments by the professional and experienced gunmakers.   However, I am neither, and low enough in the experience curve that actually seeing these issues and practicing on it is worthwhile.  For me, if time was money I wouldn't even do this, but the worst that can happen now is I end up buying another stock and still stay in a more modest budget over buying a Track Kit or a retail gun.  The rest of the parts are OK.

The musket is clearly a prop for movies or a dummy for re-enactors, and, if the vendor is guilty of anything, it is not making it clear in upper case that the guns are a live fire risk and need to be checked out by somebody qualified before taking on a bullet.  In fact, this vendor and another one I found on the web ( with a great variety of guns) should probably modify their business plan to stay away from selling these for shooting bullets.  I am told that several re-enactment groups won't allow Indian guns in the battle re-enactments

I ran a patch down the barrel and was surprised to feel the breech end of the barrel expanded to the point where the patch came off the jag and had to be fetched out with the wire worm.  Twice.  I am assuming that this would have made for a lot of problems and medical bills had I trusted this barrel with a live round, and don't think I could have proofed it without it's getting worse.

That was the end of that barrel.  Track of the Wolf had a replacement for me within three days.  Once the lugs are put on I will fit it to the stock.  The areas for additional inletting are all back past the front of the lock with only minor dowel sanding in the channel.  Currently the barrel is out at Dixons awaiting soldering the lugs, clipping and true-ing the muzzle and soldering the front sight.  Soldering is something I will never likely master or practice at all, so I want somebody more reliable than myself.  The lock works fine, but I had to reduce a lot of mainspring and frizzen spring and tit  to get it to stop eating flints.

The brass is convenient to work down the abnormal shine but the wood is soft  enough to worry about whether or not is is even walnut ( knowing that tropical walnut is softer than European) so there is an awareness of having to work slowly.

All the inletting seems to have been done with a pick ax and this gun smacks of some guy in a sweat shop having to work fast. The wooden ramrod was so trimmed at the butt end as to imply that the vendor did not want to drill out the hole correctly for wood and short-cutted for the metal rod. 

The original goal is still in place...this pig is going to fly, safely.  I'll post when the project groups five shots at 25 yards and cobbling/correcting the thing is still under the budget I thought would be there originally.
I suspect the entire product line and circumstance is because we are legally off the radar people of  who hide behind the gun control rock.  I believe it was Mike Brooks who posted the fear of having lawyers involved, and it is almost tragic that he is dead on.

Online bob in the woods

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Re: Cobbling a Cheap Musket II... Using Plastic
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2016, 04:02:54 PM »
I understand your goal, however there is one more item I would point out. I've worked on 5 or 6 of these imports, at the request of fellow reenactors, as well as working on one I purchased many years ago.
The locks tend to spark well, but at times the springs and internal parts and assembly can be of dubious quality
I tried to obtain replacement parts and was told they were not available. In the end...if you have to replace the barrel and the lock, it is an expensive way to go

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Cobbling a Cheap Musket II... Using Plastic
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2016, 04:16:10 PM »
You seem to be missing the point with your getting a pig to fly scenario. The barrel is junk, the lock is junk, the stock is junk, and the hardware is junk. So by the time you replace all of this, you have bought a second gun, and the pig has quite literally left the building. I would forget the junk from India, and just buy, and or build, the parts to create a safe, usable smoothbore.

  Hungry Horse