Author Topic: Making a main spring, question.  (Read 12910 times)

BartSr

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Re: Making a main spring, question.
« Reply #25 on: October 06, 2016, 09:21:47 PM »
Simplified V - Springs - A Guncraftmanship Manual Pamphlet by Kit Ravenshear

You can get it on Amazon or from TOW.  It will tell you everything you need to know.

Here it is:
http://store.kitravenshear.com/simplified-vsprings.html


Offline jerrywh

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Re: Making a main spring, question.
« Reply #26 on: October 06, 2016, 10:39:16 PM »
 you will get better advise on this forum than you will from Kitravenshear's book
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Offline smart dog

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Re: Making a main spring, question.
« Reply #27 on: October 07, 2016, 12:00:23 AM »
Hi Bart,
Kit's booklet is worth it because it shows clearly how to cut, bend, and shape the metal.  However, his hardening and tempering methods are a bit hit or miss and there are folks on this web site that can give you much better direction depending on the type of steel you use. Also, with respect to mainsprings, his spring designs are fine for muskets and utilitarian types of guns but there is a lot more to the shaping of springs found on good quality English sporting guns than Kit imparts. 

dave
« Last Edit: October 07, 2016, 12:04:28 AM by smart dog »
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

BartSr

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Re: Making a main spring, question.
« Reply #28 on: October 09, 2016, 01:34:59 AM »
OK, ordered three books from Kit.

Did some belt sanding on that main spring piece.  Then red heat bent (not finished yet) the curl, needs a bit more drop.  There seems to be enough width for the stud as the thick end is approximately 3/8 inch wide.



BartSr  ;D

Note:
After bending, during filing for the stud, the spring promptly broke, right at the bent part.  I made sure that the red heat stayed as I slowly bent the piece.  Mystified.  UPset as I now really need to find a metal cutting bandsaw.

Argh.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2016, 06:58:05 PM by BartSr »

pushboater

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Re: Making a main spring, question.
« Reply #29 on: October 09, 2016, 04:30:29 AM »
I second the Kit Ravenshear booklet. Great information.

Joe S

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Re: Making a main spring, question.
« Reply #30 on: October 09, 2016, 04:41:07 AM »
The easy way to do it is like this:

ht

But, you'll probably be OK.

Offline JCKelly

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Re: Making a main spring, question.
« Reply #31 on: October 13, 2016, 10:49:50 PM »
D. Taylor - I like Ravenshear's books, though I suppose I might say the metallurgical parts differently.

OK, you asked for a metalllurgist's opinion (this is where Wife makes slashing signs across her throat)

Strictly speaking, metals do not HAVE molecules. Metal is a bunch of individual atoms arranged in an orderly (more or less) pattern called a crystal. In English we like to call those crystals "grains". Germans say "korn".  Little grains are good, big grains (crystals) are usually bad, make the thing more likely to crack, break in use. 

When you forge a steel widgit parts of it are hotter than others, some parts get worked at a lower temperature than others - like, as the thing is cooling. Some areas have been so hot they grow very large grains.

You've heard someone say "...it crystallized and broke"  Well, it does look like that. If the crystals are large enough that you can see those shiny facets on the fracture surface, they are much too large. If the steel has been treated correctly, and you chose to break a piece, the fracture surface will have a silky gray appearance.

For hundreds of years people have been judging various quality aspects of steel by hardening & breaking a piece. That fracture surface tells a lot. In Olden Times there used to be nice sets of broken bars of tool steel used as standards for how steel of various grain sizes appeared when broken.

But you have some enormous grains here and there, because you forged it. Dag-gone. So do as someone earlier in this thread said, "normalize" your forging. That is, heat it up to maybe a cherry or hardening red, then just lay it on the ground to cool naturally. That is, after all, the Normal way to cool a piece of metal. The nice thing about steel is that it grows new grains in this process, and unless you heated it too hot, they will be finer grains than what you started with. Then clean off the scale and a few thousandths of surface that have had the carbon burnt out of them, and heat treat it as a spring. Lots of discussion of this, I'd try Ravenshear.

Normalizing (or maybe annealing) a steel forging is Textbook Metallurgy. And it works. As a skinny black haired kid during the JFK administration I managed to convince the product manager at Black & Decker to do this to his metal cutting tool bits, things to cut sheet metal using an electric hammer. He did so, then tested one of the regular heat treat, and one done as I suggested. Mine worked. Heh, heh the old style broke and cut his thumb.

Envision Wife making "T" signs with her hands, or throat slashing motions. OK, I'll stop.

(if you see crystals on any broken steel surface, them there grains wuz just too too big. Normalize the thing).

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Making a main spring, question.
« Reply #32 on: October 14, 2016, 11:51:34 PM »
Mr. Kelly:  I appreciate your easy to understand explanation of this mysterious process.  It is much more satisfying to know why it worked, or did not.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

BartSr

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Re: Making a main spring, question.
« Reply #33 on: October 19, 2016, 10:43:42 PM »
OK, the Kit Ravenshear books came in, I only got v-springs and 1 & 2 of components.  Wonderful information.
---
Made a second (of that 1095 strip) main spring.  Nice metal to work with.  The first one broke I suppose because I just let it pop out and it probably did not like being unrestrained in opening itself.  This new spring should be much better.  It has been in and out twice and still intact.  I will be exercising it daily, slowly while not letting it make sparks for a bit.  Is that "shocking"?   ???
---
Ordered a main spring vise from TOTW.
---
I just want to thank all of you folks who jump in to help with most anything, this is much appreciated.
I probably won't publish my lock pictures here (not trad you know) but there are pix on my blog.

BartSr

Offline JCKelly

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Re: Making a main spring, question.
« Reply #34 on: October 26, 2016, 06:00:19 PM »
An upcoming comment on Ravenshear (mislaid mine one on springs, have another coming)

There are, for sake of argument, two ways to look at heat treating steel.

One is what I used working as a metallurgist. Spring is 1074, 1095 or O1 - heat it to such & such temperature + or - 25F, time, quench in whatever, then TEMPER somewhere between 800f and 1100F.

Great if you have a coupla furnaces with decent temperature control, especially one for that 800-1100F range.

But very few of us do.

The thing I think gets most people in trouble making springs is they make them too d*** hard. Time after time I hear "my spring broke for such & such reason" Nah, it was just too hard. You tempered it by any one of the blacksmithy-methods discussed here. If there is a secret to tempering springs, it is to get the thing just soft enough not to break, yet hard enough to make a decent spring.

I do not have a good answer for this, as all of my own experience is with industrial heat treating. The methods needed to treat in one's basement are, well there is no polite term for them in contemporary industry.

Nevertheless, it is these methods that one needs to use. Somewhere on this forum I neglected to copy out a method of tempering springs that did make sense to me. If I can find it again perhaps I can include it in Heat Treating for Muzzleloaders, a little thingy I put together some years ago.

Throughout the ages people have heat treated steel by methods which no one in the Western World would use today. In medieval times armour was made of steel very, very roughly equivalent to something ranging from 1035 to 1070 today (mislaid my British reference). It was hardened by a process which today we would derisively call a "slack quench", meaning it wasn't quenched fast enough to get as hard as it could. In the year 1200 Anno Domino that was a good thing, because it would not be so hard it would crack in use. And, just like in your basement, they had no way to judge temperature in the 800-1100F range - more likely 1100F for armour.

A long winded way to say I'd suggest some manner of oil quench for your 1070 or 1095 spring, and do not use O1 tool steel. Oil hardening tool steel will likely get too hard for a spring, heat treated in the basement. Temper it by that process shown on this site which I cannot yet find (molten lead by itself is not hot enough).

 Bob R, please forgive me if I misquote, but I think Mr. Roller uses something like 1070 or 1074 for springs. I very much agree the 0.7% carbon range makes the most forgiving of the possible spring steels.

Forget about copying steel used for clock springs, auto leaf or coil springs, &c &c.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Making a main spring, question.
« Reply #35 on: October 26, 2016, 06:49:01 PM »

Jim,
I have used 1075 for about 50 years and am comfortable with it.
The name for basement heat treating of springs is Rube Goldberg.

Bob Roller
« Last Edit: October 26, 2016, 08:58:57 PM by Ky-Flinter »

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Making a main spring, question.
« Reply #36 on: October 26, 2016, 08:37:52 PM »
For about 30 years I used 1075 because I thought it was more forgiving. Now I use 1095 or 01 and have no trouble. I agree with the above except for one thing. Not only do a lot of people temper them too hard but they don't figure the time factor. When tempering a spring it takes time for the temp to equalize throughout the whole piece of steel.  If the spring is 1/8" thick it takes at least 12 minutes before the spring reaches a tempering temp throughout. Just running it up to say 725° and then letting it cool doesn't get the job done. If you cook a muffin you just don't run it up to 350° and take it out of the oven.  Steel is the same way. It needs to get done. In my opinion any spring steel is good if you temper it correctly.
 Probably the most forgiving is 6150. but to me they feel sort of mushy
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Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Making a main spring, question.
« Reply #37 on: October 26, 2016, 10:15:08 PM »
For about 30 years I used 1075 because I thought it was more forgiving. Now I use 1095 or 01 and have no trouble. I agree with the above except for one thing. Not only do a lot of people temper them too hard but they don't figure the time factor. When tempering a spring it takes time for the temp to equalize throughout the whole piece of steel.  If the spring is 1/8" thick it takes at least 12 minutes before the spring reaches a tempering temp throughout. Just running it up to say 725° and then letting it cool doesn't get the job done. If you cook a muffin you just don't run it up to 350° and take it out of the oven.  Steel is the same way. It needs to get done. In my opinion any spring steel is good if you temper it correctly.
 Probably the most forgiving is 6150. but to me they feel sort of mushy

Any spring or other steels are good if you use them with few or no reported failures for years and years.

Bob Roller

Offline Goo

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Re: Making a main spring, question.
« Reply #38 on: October 27, 2016, 02:48:56 PM »
Does anyone have pictures of what they would use or have built as a spring bending jig ?       I would like to minimize the fumbling around part of handling the hot steel quickly enough to achieve a nice bend.     It seems to require more than several heats and from time to time imperfections occur that cause the spring thickness to be reduced significantly when finished.
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Offline JCKelly

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Re: Making a main spring, question.
« Reply #39 on: October 27, 2016, 11:57:18 PM »
Looked back to May 2016, found the best discussion I've seen here on heat treating springs. Thread mostly by jerrywh, with interesting comments by DPharis and Bob Roller.  I don't agree with everything here - but then, I am a metallurgist and as such, never agree on anything.

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=40158.0

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Making a main spring, question.
« Reply #40 on: October 28, 2016, 04:05:03 PM »
Looked back to May 2016, found the best discussion I've seen here on heat treating springs. Thread mostly by jerrywh, with interesting comments by DPharis and Bob Roller.  I don't agree with everything here - but then, I am a metallurgist and as such, never agree on anything.

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=40158.0

Methods are one thing. Use whatever works for YOU. RESULTS are FINAL and longevity will tell the tale.
Spoken from experience of about 60 years.

Bob Roller