Author Topic: A Conundrum (Read 5402 times)

Mark Elliott · « **on:** November 09, 2016, 01:31:43 AM »

This question is for experienced builders only, and is more of an ethical problem than anything else. I am building what is supposed to be a very fancy carved and engraved rifle with a very expensive piece of wood. I just finished trimming up the stock after inletting the barrel and cutting the ramrod groove and hole. The problem is that my ramrod groove is 1/16" off center. They are never perfect, but not this far off. As this is for someone else, my conundrum is do I start over with another piece of wood (I have an equivalent piece of wood that I had saved for a personal rifle) or do I try to make this work. If this was just gong to be a run of the mill rifle, I would make it work, but I am not sure about what was supposed to be a presentation grade gun. The only reason I even question starting over is that no rifle is even close to perfect. You usually have to make things work. Is this too far off for professional practice?

Let me know what you think.

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #1 on:** November 09, 2016, 01:43:00 AM »

1/16" off in the front?

Mark Elliott · « **Reply #2 on:** November 09, 2016, 02:07:33 AM »

1/16" off all the way down. I did cut it straight, just in the wrong place. I think I had too many layout lines and got confused.

bob in the woods · « **Reply #3 on:** November 09, 2016, 02:19:29 AM »

What caliber barrel is it? 1/16 of an inch isn't that much...perhaps you can widen the groove a bit, favouring the off side , and then simply make slightly larger pipes. A slightly larger ramrod would not look out of place if it suits the cal.

Mark Elliott · « **Reply #4 on:** November 09, 2016, 02:35:17 AM »

The barrel is a C54. All the mounts have already been made. I would have to make new mandrels and formers to make larger ones.

smart dog · « **Reply #5 on:** November 09, 2016, 02:46:22 AM »

Hi Mark,
First, thank you very much for your comments on my English rifle! I faced a similar dilemma but for a different reason. Regardless, I would do the following: widen the ramrod groove on one side to center it on the barrel. To adjust for 1/16" should not be a problem and your thimbles should have wall thickness sufficient to handle making the ramrod groove a little wider. Then taper the ramrod so it can slide into the slightly offset hole in the stock. You are doing nothing that the old time makers would not have done. Remember, Mark, the old timers would not waste wood if they had an option not too. They would have worked around your project.

dave

Robby · « **Reply #6 on:** November 09, 2016, 02:54:29 AM »

Start over with your back up piece of wood. Doing the right thing is just that, moral relativism is the rational of cowards and the unprincipled, but their lack of ethic need not contaminate your shop.
Robby

sz · « **Reply #7 on:** November 09, 2016, 03:12:44 AM »

If I had done that I would let the customer know, and unless he told me to fix it specifically I would start with new wood and a new barrel.

After I had done his gin I would then finish the gun with the mistake and sell it, at a reduced price, so as to not take a 100% loss on it.

David Rase · « **Reply #8 on:** November 09, 2016, 03:12:44 AM »

That is why I have a professional inlet my barrels and drill the ramrods.

David

David Rase · « **Reply #9 on:** November 09, 2016, 03:17:02 AM »

Seriously, how far along are you on the build, barrel pinned, stock profiled, any hardware inlet? You are talking about the groove being off to the left or right, not up and down? If you have not pinned the barrel and have not shaved off too much wood and it were mine, I would probably start over on a new piece of wood. Then I would buy a D weight barrel to inlet into this piece of wood and build a spec gun.
David

Lucky R A · « **Reply #10 on:** November 09, 2016, 03:22:58 AM »

Hi Mark,
You are absolutely correct that no gun is ever perfect. As stated there are several fixes for the problem. To my mind the most acceptable one would be to widen the ram rod groove by 1/16, as Dave says your ram rod pipes should still work just fine. If you find that they do not look right, make new pipes. I am sure you will find use for the already completed pipes at some point on another gun.
I do not see anything unethical or cowardly in an honest workman making a workman like adjustment to a problem that will not be a problem or diminish the end result when corrected. Since the gun is a 54 cal. a slightly stouter ramrod would in fact be a value added enhancement. You are in no way cheating or defrauding your client---if it still seems a problem to you, call the client and discuss it with him, you have already laid it bare on this board...
Best wishes
Ron

davec2 · « **Reply #11 on:** November 09, 2016, 05:08:27 AM »

My personal view......if I am ever tempted to ask another's opinion about something like this..... I automatically know I should start over. I don't need to wait for an answer.

Mark Elliott · « **Reply #12 on:** November 09, 2016, 05:22:16 AM »

Thanks guys. I think I am just going to have to eat the wood and start over.

bob in the woods · « **Reply #13 on:** November 09, 2016, 07:06:10 AM »

Don't eat the wood !! Save it for another project and widen the groove. Besides...wood is bad for your digestion.

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #14 on:** November 09, 2016, 06:36:25 PM »

If it's a .54 cal. Why couldn't you use a tapered ramrod and enlarge the channel at the muzzle end. This would make it very hard for the eye to detect the 1/16th difference. Pitching a build over a miniscule error like this seems ludicrous. JMO.

Hungry Horse

T*O*F · « **Reply #15 on:** November 09, 2016, 07:58:59 PM »

Mark,
I just had a 1st timer spend every Friday since June with me building his first rifle from scratch. Right off the bat, we grabbed the 7/16ths router bit instead of the 3/8ths one. I have some 7/16ths pipes, but we went ahead and inlet the 3/8ths one because it was a .50 caliber. Had it been a larger caliber, we would have used the larger thimbles. It turned out OK but we had to expose the thimbles more.

There is absolutely no reason why you can't enlarge your channel the 1/16th that it needs and go with 7/16ths pipes and ramrod.

Daryl · « **Reply #16 on:** November 09, 2016, 08:07:12 PM »

Quote from: Hungry Horse on November 09, 2016, 06:36:25 PM

If it's a .54 cal. Why couldn't you use a tapered ramrod and enlarge the channel at the muzzle end. This would make it very hard for the eye to detect the 1/16th difference. Pitching a build over a miniscule error like this seems ludicrous. JMO.

Hungry Horse

ditto! new pipes and done, unless I'm missing something.

bob in the woods · « **Reply #17 on:** November 09, 2016, 08:50:59 PM »

Originally posted for experienced builders, but I figured that I have more than enough experience dealing with mistakes

1/16 off the mark is not too much to fix by widening the groove.[ IMO ] I don't believe that your eyes would even see it when done

Ed Wenger · « **Reply #18 on:** November 09, 2016, 09:50:05 PM »

Mark... I agonized in my mind what I would do if confronted with this problem, and admit that's a tough call. At the end of the day it probably comes down to what you can "live with". I agree with what other guys have said about all pices having their "issues", but again, it's what you can accept. It sounds like you went through a similar process and came to a conclusion. Good for you. I think in the end, you'd be agonizing about an off center ram rod hole, which might effect the build going forward, and also bother you. While difficult, I think you made the right decision for you going forward with the project. Look forward to seeing some photos when it's finished!

Ed

jerrywh · « **Reply #19 on:** November 10, 2016, 05:33:35 AM »

I never cheat on a presentation gun. Do what ever it takes to make it perfect, spend what ever it takes and charge accordingly. You can salvage the mistake for something else. Never use other peoples mistakes to justify your own. I don't care what the old timers did they never built guns of the quality that some of us do.
I know you enough to know you want to be the best and that is part of the price. You will not be sorry in the end.

Tom Currie · « **Reply #20 on:** November 10, 2016, 05:57:54 AM »

I have cut a RR groove off center like this before. My situation was not on a customer premium grade stock so my fix does not apply to the ethical part of the situation. However, I cut 2 thin strips of the maple ( like veneer ) and precisely pressed them into the overcut side, then was able to cut the other side correcting the off center. After cleanup the fix was virtually undetectable with the dark finish applied.

Mark, I applaud you reaching to experienced members, your peers, for advice. Clearly you're an up front guy by putting this situation in front of all of us.

KentSmith · « **Reply #21 on:** November 10, 2016, 09:58:14 PM »

Presentation gun - worth using the other stock. Keep the current one for your gun. I know it hurts but will hurt more, you'll never be able to forget the mistake even if you successfully cover it up. When you get our age you have enough ghosts at 3am.

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #22 on:** November 10, 2016, 11:58:33 PM »

C'mon you guys if every original gun that was built with a flaw in it, was trash canned, there would literally be no longrifles to pattern our replicas after. I would say it is likely every gun built back in the day, has either a man made flaw, corrected or not, or God made flaw, corrected or not. A large part of being a good craftsman is being able to minimize the impact of such little imperfections.

Hungry Horse

jerrywh · « **Reply #23 on:** November 11, 2016, 04:58:26 AM »

No body really needs a excuse to be 2nd or 3rd. rate. A person either has pride in his work or doesn't. How many people would go to a CLA show if they were all junk.
Personally the more junk there is around the more I get for mine. Don't let the junk builders drag you down Mark.
You see if there are no real nice ones, theirs look better. Am I making friends yet???

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Author Topic: A Conundrum (Read 5402 times)