Fine engraving question--late 17th-early 18th century

[Hemo]

I was browsing some internet images and came across this pistol by Dafte dated around 1690. Having just finished the Dolep lock set, and stymied by the fine double-line border engraving on the original Dolep lock, I was interested to see the same essentially perfect shallow double line around the border of this lock including the cock and frizzen. I have a hard time believing this was done with a single hand-held graver freehand. I suspect there was some sort of double-tipped graver with an index stop on the side to make these very perfect cuts. Does anyone have any insight on this?



Here's the original Dolep lock for comparison:




Gregg

[jerrywh]

The engravers of that time were much better than some of us think today. Some of the engraving done in the 17th and 18th centuries was so good that only a few modern Master engravers today can equal them. However that quality is only found on European firearms , with only one exception that I am aware of in America. In my opinion the example shown was done with a single point tool and laid out with a set of dividers.  The two single lines are actually the easier part for a Master engraver. The hardest part is the outside molding. The outside molding was done with multiple tools. A square a flat or two  scrapers and stones.
  One of the requirement to obtain a Master status in the FEGA is to do a set of parallel lines like you are showing. Pretty difficult but not real difficult. I can guarantee you the lock maker didn't do the engraving. 

[smart dog]

Hi Gregg,
Following up on what Jerry said, the lines are called a "thick and thin" border.  One line is heavy, the other is light and thin. There are gravers that cut multiple lines but the resulting lines tend to be light because you are removing a lot of metal if the graver goes deep.  Usually liners are used for background shading.  I suspect the lines on the lock were cut with single line tools with one line becoming the visual guide for the second parallel line.  It is not that hard to do with practice.  It is harder on that curved lock plate surface because you really have to make sure your graver is perpendicular to the surface. If tilted because of the curved surface, your line will vary in width.  Kutter, who posts on this forum, mentioned that he uses a thin flat grave for the thick line.  That way you tend not to tilt the tool over and even if your cutting depth is a little uneven, the line will not widen as it will with a square graver.

dave 

[Hemo]

Well, this certainly leaves me in awe of the early engravers, and modern ones too. I suppose if it's really not that hard to do, I might be able to master the technique (sort of) with enough practice, though I guess we can't all be masters of every craft.

I think this speaks to the importance of fashion in the mindset of the 17th and 18th century craftsmen, when even several models of the utilitarian Brown Bess were made with decorative engraving, though they were knocked off in their thousands. The Crown obviously felt the additional expense of engravers was necessary to make an acceptable product (or were these marks cast in?).



Of course the level of detail is not as fine on a military lock as a civilian type, but still looks like a fair amount of labor. If you're going to wage a great bloody war, it must have been important to do it with style and flair!

Gregg

[jerrywh]

 In England in the 18th century there were engraving shops where perhaps a hundred or more young boys did engraving. These were boys around the age of 12 and up. They mostly did book engraving for illustration. It is likely that the makers of brownbess musket locks used kids like that for engraving. Some of that stuff was stamped in.
  The reason that young boys were used a lot is because they had good eyesight.  Many of them did wood block engraving. They were probably paid by the piece.  They never played video games or watched tV. 

[smart dog]

Hi Jerry,
I remember a story about English gun engravers but I cannot remember the source.  The story went that if you compare English gun engraving from the 18th and early 19th centuries you see the deep hammer and chisel work.  However, after about 1830 or 1840 you see the light, shallow scroll work we call English scroll abruptly emerging and completely changing the style of gun engraving.  The story goes that engravers skilled with hammer and chisel were getting scarce because the money for engravers was in copperplate engraving, which used hand powered gravers.  So the gun trade had to hire copperplate engravers to fill their orders and they did finer more intricate scroll work that could be done with hand gravers, hence, the transition to "English scroll".

dave

[jerrywh]

Smart Dog.
  That probably came from the book British gun engraving.  A real neat book and not too expensive.

[Keithbatt]

Smart Dog.
  That probably came from the book British gun engraving.  A real neat book and not too expensive.

Are you referring to the book by Douglas Tate?

Thanks,

Keith

[smart dog]

Hi Gregg,
To show that I walk the walk as well as talk the talk, the link below shows thick and thin borders on a swivel action.  They are done as I previously described.

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=37098.0

dave

[Hemo]

Hi Gregg,
To show that I walk the walk as well as talk the talk, the link below shows thick and thin borders on a swivel action.  They are done as I previously described.

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=37098.0

dave

Nice work, Dave! I recall seeing that post. Never thought about using a thin flat graver. I think I may need to hire one of those 12-year-old street urchins with good eyesight the next time I try this, though.

Gregg

[davec2]

On the subject of young engravers:

In 1978 I was a junior officer aboard a Navy destroyer on a western Pacific deployment.  We had been in and out of the US Naval base at Subic Bay.  One day as I was on the pier, there was a small boy with a little portable work bench doing something for a sailor from another ship.  I walked over to see what was up and the lad was engraving brass belt buckles.  He asked me if I wanted a buckle.  I asked how long it would take... and he said about 20 minutes !  He had a small vice, a single square (obviously home made) graver, a sharpening stone, and a little hammer.  This is what he engraved for me…..in about 20 minutes.  He wanted $5……I gave him $20.  He smiled a lot.  I asked him how old he was.  He was 9.

[Hemo]

On the subject of young engravers:

In 1978 I was a junior officer aboard a Navy destroyer on a western Pacific deployment.  We had been in and out of the US Naval base at Subic Bay.  One day as I was on the pier, there was a small boy with a little portable work bench doing something for a sailor from another ship.  I walked over to see what was up and the lad was engraving brass belt buckles.  He asked me if I wanted a buckle.  I asked how long it would take... and he said about 20 minutes !  He had a small vice, a single square (obviously home made) graver, a sharpening stone, and a little hammer.  This is what he engraved for me…..in about 20 minutes.  He wanted $5……I gave him $20.  He smiled a lot.  I asked him how old he was.  He was 9.

Great story! I'd say I'd hire the little fellow but by my math he'd be about 47 years old now, and his eyes have probably already gone.

Gregg