Over pressure signs?

[knifemaker3]

Question for you all.

I know how to tell on cartridge guns when you are reaching max loads by the pressure signs left on the cartridge.

How do you tell with muzzle loaders?

I'm considering building myself a rifle that would not be allowed on here due to it being an underhammer long range with a fast twist barrel.  If I do I'm going to need to know how to watch for max loading so I have all ka-pows and no ka-bluey's. 

I may even use a traditional percussion and use a fast twist barrel.  Either way, I'm curious what to watch for when working up loads.

Thanks!

[WadePatton]

The experts will chime in soon, but this doofus will allow that what he has gathered in this regard is that: SO LONG as you are burning a rifle-type genuine black powder, that you can load it to the front sight without going "over pressure".

But this might not be your most accurate or economical loading.  

Work loads up until they loosen up.  The back off, fine tune for best accuracy.  If you need more power/range, go up in caliber (or longer in bullet). Also re-develop the load if you change balls/bullets or patches or lube or powder.

[PPatch]

Relative to those nitro burning funny guns black powder is far slower burning, so anything not consumed by the time the bullet exits the barrel is wasted powder. It is unlikely you will be exploding a breech due to overcharging, but you may well be damaging your accuracy.

What you want is a charge that produces your best grouping at the range you are shooting at, and that will be below the amount of powder you could stuff in there.

dave

[WadePatton]

Relative to those nitro burning funny guns black powder is far slower burning, so anything not consumed by the time the bullet exits the barrel is wasted powder. It is unlikely you will be exploding a breech due to overcharging, but you may well be damaging your accuracy.

What you want is a charge that produces your best grouping at the range you are shooting at, and that will be below the amount of powder you could stuff in there.

dave

Love it.  Did you make that up or to whom should I give credit for "nitro-burning funny guns"?

WP

[bob in the woods]

I do believe that you are talking about a rifle with a fast twist suitable for shooting bullets. Bullet rifles are different than round ball rifles because of the heavy for bore size projectile. Pressures are absolutely higher.
That is why they used platinum nipples on the percussion long range rifles. If you have a good quality barrel, and don't try to make a "magnum" you will be fine.  In my experience, any charge over a 100 gr of powder isn't necessary in a .45 cal.    Look at the BPCR 's on the line at long range[ 1000 yard ] matches, and you'll probably find more 45-90's than anything else.  

[smylee grouch]

Gosh PPatch, I always thought that black powder was faster burning than smokeless. Can anyone expound on that?

[WadePatton]

Gosh PPatch, I always thought that black powder was faster burning than smokeless. Can anyone expound on that?

Yeah, I missed that-but agree.  ALSO, methinks the biggest difference is how they burn in a restricted space (under pressure).  That the pressures achieved by NC powders simply cannot be achieved with BP-for lack of whatever chemistry engineering-explanation there might be.

Hang tight, we'll likely get it soon. 

[knifemaker3]

I do believe that you are talking about a rifle with a fast twist suitable for shooting bullets. Bullet rifles are different than round ball rifles because of the heavy for bore size projectile. Pressures are absolutely higher.
That is why they used platinum nipples on the percussion long range rifles. If you have a good quality barrel, and don't try to make a "magnum" you will be fine.  In my experience, any charge over a 100 gr of powder isn't necessary in a .45 cal.    Look at the BPCR 's on the line at long range[ 1000 yard ] matches, and you'll probably find more 45-90's than anything else.  

Yes,sorry I should have mentioned this was for bullets not balls.

I was figuring on somewhere in the 80-100gr of ff substitute, probably triple seven or pyro select just cause I have lots of it from a good deal I got on it. Don't hate me for using substitute....just what's easily available and cheap.😁

[bob in the woods]

If you're using substitutes, I would contact the powder manufacturer for advice. Some of those subs are pretty "hot"    I don't know of any one ever winning or placing in a long range match while using these substitute powders [  I believe Pyrodex was allowed many years ago....not sure if that's still true]     Your original question was concerning BP.   With a substitute, I'd say all bets are off.

[Mike Brooks]

If you want accuracy go black. If you just want to hear it go boom go with the subs. Even in my BPCR days I never found a sub that worked worth a @!*%.
 Black powder is so incredibly easy to get I can't imagine limping along with subs. You can get black powder shipped right to your door, don't even have to drive to a store to buy it.

[hanshi]

I've always considered Black powder an "accuracy" powder.  In a couple of "metal suppository" revolvers, I finally got accuracy I never got with smokeless.  Quality c&b revolvers, I've proved to myself, will stay up with or outperform these modern thingies.

[little joe]

The experts will chime in soon, but this doofus will allow that what he has gathered in this regard is that: SO LONG as you are burning a rifle-type genuine black powder, that you can load it to the front sight without going "over pressure".

But this might not be your most accurate or economical loading.  

Work loads up until they loosen up.  The back off, fine tune for best accuracy.  If you need more power/range, go up in caliber (or longer in bullet). Also re-develop the load if you change balls/bullets or patches or lube or powder.

That was belief in the 1960,s, that you could  load to the ft. sight, however you need to you need to stop and think you are pushing a lot of powder weight plus the ball weight. Are these questions allowed on American Longrifles. Side hammer guns and round ball?

[Smoketown]

Here ya go ...

Black powder mis-loading and more ...

Remember, these guys ARE professionals.   




Cheers,
Smoketown

[Dave Patterson]

I know you know this, but just can't help being a smart-mouth here...

"How do you tell with a muzzleloader?"

Well... when you find the hammer at full cock position, AFTER firing, or you've got little fragments of cap imbedded in your face, you MIGHT wanna back down a couple grains for the next test shot. 

Sorry:  couldn't help myself.  We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.   

[smylee grouch]

Hammer blow back can happen even with moderate loads if your nipple flash hole is eroded enough or if the main spring is weak.

[Bob Roller]

Hammer blow back can happen even with moderate loads if your nipple flash hole is eroded enough or if the main spring is weak.

OR if it bulges the dovetail cuts in a heavy barrel

Bob Roller

[snapper]

I have 6 ML rifles that are 45 cal fast twist bullet guns.  I hunt with them and also shoot competitivelyout to 1,000 yards.

I have been able to work up accurate loads in all of these rifle using 86 grains of 2 F swiss.  It gives me right at 1300 FPS.

I know of guys that shoot competitively that will go up to around 110 grains of black.

I do not know of any one competitively shooting a substitute powder.

I agree fully with Brooks, there is not reason to shoot anything other than black.

Fleener

[Daryl]

Hammer blow back can happen even with moderate loads if your nipple flash hole is eroded enough or if the main spring is weak.

OR if it bulges the dovetail cuts in a heavy barrel

Bob Roller

Or little bulges into the rear sight screw holes, causing tiny little loose spots noticed when cleaning.

[knifemaker3]

I have 6 ML rifles that are 45 cal fast twist bullet guns.  I hunt with them and also shoot competitivelyout to 1,000 yards.

I have been able to work up accurate loads in all of these rifle using 86 grains of 2 F swiss.  It gives me right at 1300 FPS.

I know of guys that shoot competitively that will go up to around 110 grains of black.

I do not know of any one competitively shooting a substitute powder.

I agree fully with Brooks, there is not reason to shoot anything other than black.

Fleener


Thanks!  I would love to find someone near me who is into the fast twist barrels to pick their brains a little. 

Looks like I'm going to have to find some black.  Have enough substitutes I purchased off of a distributor to resale here at my store that is cheap I'd rather shoot it. But, guess I'll be getting some black.