muzzle cap trouble

[Nordnecker]

Making and fitting a muzzle cap is something I struggle with. I thought I had breezed through it yesterday but when cleaning it up I found that my solder joint didn't hold on one side for the last 3/16s or so.  It seams just about impossible (for me, at least) to re-solder something like this. It never really works. the joint is dirty and the solder never wants to flow. It gets hot and the whole thing shifts or falls on the floor and gets dirt all over it.
I did a 2 piece cap on my last rifle by wrapping the "sleeve" around the face. I had a lot of trouble with it. This time I tried butting the sleeve to the face. Which way is better?
I'm going to try and salvage what I've done, but I'll probably end up starting all over again.

[L. Akers]

I have always made muzzle caps by wrapping the sleeve around the face.  The joint is less noticeable.

[deepcreekdale]

I have done it both ways or swage it from a single piece of brass, but generally solder the face on to the sleeve. The key is making your joint absolutely perfect, and making sure it is perfectly clean, I sand it with fine sandpaper until bright. Do not let your fingers touch any of the surfaces to be joined after this point or you will screw up the joint. Flux and tin as usual and when heated, the solder should flow throughout the joint and be invisible. It is important not to move the piece even a tiny bit until the solder solidifies or you will have a weak joint or a gap. I always leave the face part oversize until after soldering and trim to fit the muzzle profile of the barrel.

[PPatch]

I am sure you've probably seen Ace'ers two-piece nose cap tutorial Nord - but it might be worth reviewing;

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=24785.0

There is also another tutorial on one-piece nose cap making.

dave

[davec2]

Nordnecker,

What type of solder and flux are you using ?

[Dennis Glazener]

I make the sleeve first then I just find a piece of the same metal as the sleeve and make it large enough to fasten in a little small vise (so to be less of a heat sink) the I sit the sleeve on the flat piece (I have tried wiring it in place but most of the time I don't since I usually burn the fine wire into). I fill the inside with silver solder flux (mostly borax) then heat from the bottom and use 1/32" silver solder to solder it. Don't think I have ever had a bad joint.

Once cool I cut excess off with jeweler's saw, then file flush. Then I slip the cap on the fore end and scribe the octagon cutout for the barrel using the bottom of the barrel channel as a guide. Normally when finished you can not see the joint without looking very close.

I prefer one piece nose caps but am usually making a mountain rifle which are almost always 2 piece.

Dennis

[Dale Halterman]

You mention that the joint gets dirty. I think you may be using too much heat.

Dale H

[Nordnecker]

Thanks, everyone. I managed to salvage it. Yes, I've seen the tutorial. But seeing it and doing it are two different things. I'm just using plumber's flux and lead solder. I had a little can of "Nocorrode" flux that I thought worked a lot better but it is used up. I had been using a mapp gas torch to anneal and just picked it up out of habit. I bought some silver bearing solder one time but it isn't compatible with the flux I have (for whatever reason).
I took a sharp scribe and scratched out the joint where it was loose. I dabbed a little flux on it and used a propane torch. I had the cap firmly clamped in a parallel jawed vice with just the offending part sticking up. Fortunately, nothing shifted and the solder went in and held.

[flehto]

I first make the end piece out of 1/8" thick brass which is 1/32" undersize on the outside and w/ the bbl in the stock, place the end piece on the stock/bbl and scribe around.

The sleeve is made of .040 brass and wraps around the end piece and high temp silver solder {1200 degree melt} is used to join.  The assembly is held together w/ 1/16 baling wire when soldering..  Really doesn't need such a strong joint, but that's what I've always done.

The scribed outline from the end piece aids in inletting the MCap. Nothing new here and there's probably better ways to make a Mcap.....Fred

[deepcreekdale]

Nord, next time you might want to try some of Brownells, Force 44 solder. It melts at a real low temperature, seems to flow very easily and is very strong. I use plumbers flux as well but as Dale H pointed out, you might be using a bit too much heat. Just enough heat to make the solder flow is all you want, more than that and the flux burns. Glad you fixed your problem though.

[Scota4570]

When using lead solder tin the part first.  Use a little ball of steel wool and needle nose pliers.  Put some flux and a dab of solder on the steel wool.  Heat the part until rubbing steel wool on the part covers the joint area with an even coat of silver.  Let it cool.  Wash of the acid flux.  Coat with rosin flux.   Jig the parts together and heat slowly.  When the tinned areas turn glossy silver again add a little extra solder.  I use rosin core radio solder.  Let cool naturally.

[David R. Pennington]

Soldering takes a little practice. Traditionally sheet metal workers used copper irons heated in a furnace to supply the heat. With the irons it was difficult to overheat the work. Overheating is easy to do with a torch when soldering. The most important thing is to make sure everything is CLEAN. As someone has already mentioned the flux and solder need to be compatible. I like liquid flux for tinning and joining small parts. Don't apply torch flame directly on the flux, it will usually burn and cause problems. Bring the heat up slowly from the backside or away from the joint and work toward it heating just enought o get the solder flowing. Preheat the larger or thicker piece a little first sometimes helps.

[Scota4570]

That is why I tin the parts first.  IF you over heat or they are  a little dirty, it does not matter.  Just scrub with the steel wool, flux, solder ball until it is coated with solder.  Later when you join the parts you are about 99% assured of success. 

[Nordnecker]

I was a plumbers' helper for several years. I was pretty good at sweating pipe joints but gun parts are totally different. My success rate is about 50%. I think I need to call Rio Grand and get a few things anyway, like some bonafide solder and compatible flux. I had to solder two barrel lugs yesterday and I'll be surprised if they both stay put. I tinned both parts, used a pencil lead to keep the solder from sticking where I didn't want it and on one, the solder stuck where the pencil mark was but not to the lug. I had just cleaned both surfaces. It broke free while trying to clean the outboard solder loose. I re-grouped and tried again. It was getting late by then and I quit for the day.
I will need to solder some silver heads to brass keys soon. I'm wondering how to jig them together on an angle for soldering.