Author Topic: How they did it back then circa 1750's (Read 8188 times)

Dave B · « **on:** April 09, 2009, 08:25:48 AM »

I am forever taking things apart and wanting to see what is it like inside underneath. I was taking some pictures of an original French fowler and wanted to share what I found in its construction. More specifically the style of the trigger plate and trigger and then the inletting depth of the trigger guard and its bumped up molding. The lock and side plate are pretty cool to. I posted more photos over in The Antique section

I have seen other french triggers and this is the first with the little forward lip pointing up at the front of the bottom section. The pin in the last photo is the trigger pivot and note it is tapered.

Eric Laird · « **Reply #1 on:** April 09, 2009, 02:11:28 PM »

Dave,
Thanks for posting these pics. As seldom as most of us get to handle originals, it's even rarer to see the internals! There's always something to be learned when you see this level of detail (or at least in my case). Thanks again.
Eric

rich pierce · « **Reply #2 on:** April 09, 2009, 07:01:48 PM »

Interesting that the trigger is off to one side in the trigger bar. Like it had one slot cut and if it was a double, you'd cut another? Very nice work.

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #3 on:** April 09, 2009, 07:33:18 PM »

Quote from: richpierce on April 09, 2009, 07:01:48 PM

Interesting that the trigger is off to one side in the trigger bar. Like it had one slot cut and if it was a double, you'd cut another? Very nice work.

Common on Euro guns.

Jim Kibler · « **Reply #4 on:** April 09, 2009, 07:53:50 PM »

Dave,

What is the distance between the trigger pivot point and the sear contact on the trigger bar? Just kind of curious. Figured you should be able to see the mark on the trigger bar. Thanks for the photos.

-Jim

Stophel · « **Reply #5 on:** April 09, 2009, 08:49:01 PM »

I'll wager it's a lot closer to 3/4" than it is to 3/8"!!!

Roger Fisher · « **Reply #6 on:** April 09, 2009, 09:08:33 PM »

I assume that is lead filler under the hind guard section.. I also assume he poured it in with the guard in place. I'm probably wrong, what say you? Looks as though he plain screwed up and hogged out too much wood. That apprentice probably went to bed hungry

Blacksmoke · « **Reply #7 on:** April 09, 2009, 09:16:49 PM »

Stophel - I am with you on that! most old originals that I've dismantled have the tail of the sear almost slipping off the backside of the trigger bar. That makes for a longer trigger creep to release the tumbler and it can add lbs. to the trigger pressure. However if the lock was properly made it will have a mainspring in the correct position in relation the tumbler so as to configure a decrease in tension on the cock as you pull it back to full cock position. This also decreases the amount of pressure needed to be applied to trigger in releasing the sear's engagement in the fullcock notch. In other words when the cock is fully forward the amount of pressure to start it's travel back to 1/2 cock should be at least twice as much tension as is needed to finally click it into fullcock position. To "cock" a properly made lock-- it should feel easier as one pulls the hammer back and NOT harder- this applies to CF guns as well. There is something to ponder!

Hugh Toenjes

Stophel · « **Reply #8 on:** April 09, 2009, 09:17:31 PM »

I don't see it, Roger. What are you talking about?

Stophel · « **Reply #9 on:** April 09, 2009, 09:19:46 PM »

Here are photos of some of my meager collection that I have taken apart. I need to rephotograph everything with a better camera.
www.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Fatdutchman

Go to about page 5 and the pictures of the disassembled guns start.

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #10 on:** April 09, 2009, 09:47:45 PM »

It may be a photo trick Rog, where the rear of the guard is curving into the wood, it's the shiny spots at the tail of the trigger plate that look like lead, or metallic.

I am digging those mouldings. They were certainly cut after the parts were inlet. I am surprised they are still there, after all these years, and being so thin. Cool beans.

D. Taylor Sapergia · « **Reply #11 on:** April 09, 2009, 10:06:21 PM »

Perhaps Dave can comment on what Roger is referring to. I agree with Tom...just highlights on shiny wood.

Roger Fisher · « **Reply #12 on:** April 09, 2009, 10:17:15 PM »

Quote from: Acer Saccharum on April 09, 2009, 09:47:45 PM

It may be a photo trick Rog, where the rear of the guard is curving into the wood, it's the shiny spots at the tail of the trigger plate that look like lead, or metallic.

I am digging those mouldings. They were certainly cut after the parts were inlet. I am surprised they are still there, after all these years, and being so thin. Cool beans.

I had not studied the guard itself in the earlier photo, It is infact the tail end of the trigger plate that certainly appears to have been filled by what looks to these old eyes as lead or similar. look at forward end of that part of the inlet. You can see that the plate was either pushed in to the mortice or something "lead like' was poured around the plate to fill gap/gaps. Of course the glare from the camera lighting may give that 'shine' in that area!

Then again why would he have used lead or similar when setting in a sliver of stock wood would have done the sameo!

Dave B · « **Reply #13 on:** April 09, 2009, 11:01:25 PM »

The shine is just that, a polished section of the inlet that reflected the flash, it is just wood with a couple hundred years of dirt, dust and grime. Jim the distance from the pivot point and lock contact is at 7/16 or just under it. Its as close as I can get with it all back together and the lock out.

D. Taylor Sapergia · « **Reply #14 on:** April 09, 2009, 11:06:14 PM »

Look at that lock panel - bet it's not 3/32" wide.

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #15 on:** April 09, 2009, 11:24:21 PM »

They didn't know how to leave their lock panels wide enough. Did it all wrong. Too bad we can't go back and tell 'em how to do it.

David Rase · « **Reply #16 on:** April 10, 2009, 03:35:03 AM »

Quote from: richpierce on April 09, 2009, 07:01:48 PM

Interesting that the trigger is off to one side in the trigger bar. Like it had one slot cut and if it was a double, you'd cut another? Very nice work.

The offset trigger was done on a lot of rifles to move the contact point on the sear bar closer to the lock plate thus eliminating deflection in the sear.
DMR

Z. Buck · « **Reply #17 on:** April 10, 2009, 03:30:52 PM »

not that ive held many European originals, or originals of any kind , but the jeagers i have handled didnt seem to have this much room off center when looking at the trigger, but rather that it was more or less right beside center rather than three thicknesses away, did i just not see the other triggers as clearly because the guns were assembled, or is this one offset to the extreme?

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #18 on:** April 10, 2009, 03:40:12 PM »

I have seen HV fowlers with the trigger crowded toward the side of the lock. I think this accomplishes two things:
1) as Dave R pointed out, helps the sear work better.
2) with a big wristed gun, you can reach the trigger easier.

Dave B · « **Reply #19 on:** April 10, 2009, 04:50:24 PM »

The earlier flintlocks had very powerful main springs and the closer in to the lock the trigger was the more direct the force to release it. Just as Dave discussed previously there was much less torque on the sear as result. This feature is even found on some longrifles though not to this extreem.

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Author Topic: How they did it back then circa 1750's (Read 8188 times)