Original John Sites newly acquired TODAY

[Molly]

I'll let the photos do the talking.  The name on the barrel is hard to capture with a camera but it is unquestionably Sites.  The Inside of the patch box has JS on it as well.

Barrel is 45 15/16th long.  About 1/2 inch across the top flat.  Bigger than a 54 but not quite 58.  Overall length is about 61.25.  The lock still shows some nice engraving but it's faint.  The lock carries the name (as best as I can tell) of ? + W SPIES, Warranteed.  This is not the greatest rifle I have seen but it's pretty nice and the big appeal is that it was probably built in my back yard over 200 years ago (well, maybe not exactly my back yard).  The wood was cut from a tree right here in the county and the iron barrel may have been made from ore mined in the area (Iron Gate) with forges at Roaring Run and Troutville.  The photo with the silver doller over the finale is to show the size of the finale.  A silver dollar will not totally cover all point of the "flower".

There was a very long pause after I handed the seller my check.  And we had a lengthy conversation about how and were and when he got it.  He said if he sold it he might have to come home with me and the Mr.  I really was not sure he was going to accept the check, but it was what he asked.  I finally asked if we had a deal, he responded "You Devil"!  Yes we have a deal.  Now, what will I do if he calls in the morning after a sleepless night and wants it back?

[General]

  That is a very good find. Rifling is still very good, I like the rear sight along with so much of the rest of the rifle.
  When the phone rings in the am, you'll be checking your caller ID to see if you want to answer it. I'm sure you would pick it up, take a deep breath and say hello.
  Congrats Molly. George

[Chowmi]

Molly,
that is a fine rifle.  I love the patchbox and the toe plate. 
I have no knowledge of Sites whatsoever, so with that in mind I have a few observations and questions.

Was he a builder in the flintlock period?
Looks to me like the lock may have been converted to percussion.  The engraving on the lock is cut off by the cut-out for the nipple drum, indicating a possible conversion.  The hammer doesn't seem to be square to the face of the nipple, unless the gunsmith angled the face inside the hammer to match the nipple. 
Looks like the lock fits the mortice well, I would assume that the bit towards the bottom of the lock in which you can see the mainspring is just wood shrinkage, rather than an indication that the lock was replaced.  Added to that, is the previously mentioned idea that the it is a conversion.

Looking at the side panel created some confusion to me.  It has a single lock bolt, but yet I think it is a conversion.  Late period maybe?  Again, I don't know Sites.  Also, the black shaded/looking areas of the side panel almost look like the impression of a side panel inlay.  Added to that, when I zoom in on the picture, it looks like there might be a wood plug of screw diameter exactly where I would expect to see a front lock bolt.  Is it just me imagining?  There is no evidence on the lock of a long gone front lock bolt. 

Anyway,
take these musings for what they are worth.  I do not in any way intend to impugn the history or value of your rifle.  I am just attempting to further my abilities to look critically at original guns and would like to hear what you think and see with your rifle. 

[Molly]

Thanks for the comments and observations.  J. Sites was born in 1785 as I recall, "in Fincastle County, Va" according to Whiskers.  More on the "Fincastle County" matter later.

He was in or near what is the current Fincastle (town of) as late as 1820 and was a gun builder during that time so yes, to building during the flintlock period.  No question that this was originally a flint rifle which was converted and my thinking is it was an early conversion.  It seems somewhat crudely done compared to other conversions I have seen.  Maybe even by Sites himself?  I lean to believing (or wanting to believe) that the lock is original to the rifle.  After the posting I looked into the lock maker and found "A + W SPIES" was a Philly, Pa maker of firearms and components during the period.  It is and has always been a single screw lock and while the wood is darkened where a side plate would be I don't feel there ever was a side plate.  There is absolutely no depression which would have resulted from one and the area looks as it it has always been exposed.  You may see an area that looks "plugged" but that is not the case.

I think the biggest issue is that my photos are not so good.  I'll try to add some clearer ones later.

I welcome any comments, critical, contradictory or complimentary.  How else do we learn?

Oh yes, no phone call yet, but it's still early!

[oldtravler61]

  Molly congrats on a great find. If I acquire anymore guns until after Christmas. The boss says I might be studying the after life via first hand experience.   LOL thanks for showing.  Mike

[Molly]

"after Christmas"...that's only a little over 4 days.  We can both wait it out!

I went to visit another original J. Sites rifle this morning that is local but also NFS.  It is also signed but in a different manner.  But there are so many small feature differences between these two.  Patch box, toe plate and stock are almost identical but so many other features differ.  Trigger guards are totally different,  front and rear sites differ, entry pipe and thimbles differ and it has wooden inlays along the length of the barrel.  At first they looked like brass but they are wood.  I will get access to take detailed photos of that one sometime later.  Both signed originals, both in respectable original condition, yet features that would make you wonder when, how and why he changed things that much.  That one I feel is earlier that mine and mine looks like it is done to a higher standard...possibly as his skills got better OR the other may have been much the work of an apprentice with him overseeing.  What fun it is to muse at the reasons behind some of these things.  The other compelling feeling is that I have brought it home.  That makes me feel good!

[Dennis Glazener]

There was a member of the Sites family that was running a gun shop in the Covington VA area as late as the late 1980's. I believe his name was Howard. A friend of mine, that I used to shoot with, knew him well. My friend told me he was a direct descendant of the Sites gun makers dating back to the early 1800's. I have no idea if he is still living or has since passed on but I would suspect he has relatives still living in the area.
Dennis
 

[Molly]

Mr. G.  I am slightly familiar with that individual.  He is deceased...quite some many years ago as I understand.  Those who knew him when he operated his shop say he had a "store full" of rifles.  I think his focus was more on the order of what were modern hunting guns of that day (40 or so years ago) not long rifles as such.  Claims are that he built really good firearms.  I saw one of the few long rifles he made.  Nice rifle, rather plain but still nice.  The owner of that rifle probably still has it but he is attached to it far beyond reason when it comes to selling it...or at least he was.  I do not know the family connection but I am sure there is one however not likely through John Sites Sr. who left VA in about 1833/34 and along with his wife and one son.  He had a second son by a subsequent wife but they all ended their days in Mo. The firearms that the family produced when in Mo. had quite a distinctive "St Louis" style.  In fact I have photos of one that will rival the most desirable Hawkens and I could have purchase it back a few years ago. John Sr. had three brothers one of which was George of Rockingham County and if I'm not mistaken George died in Botetourt county so clearly he may have been related through George.  Whiskers identifies about 7 builders in VA by the name of Sites which is the Americanized version of their German name.  Two of my associates, when learning that I had a "Sites" rifle mistakenly thought it was by the later Covington maker...and I think the name was Howard or maybe Henry.  One of the very early Sites was named Henry also.  So what do you think about this rifle?

[Dennis Glazener]

I like it but am not familiar with Sites rifles so I am not able to compare to others made by the family.
Dennis

[JCKelly]

I believe this to be an original percussion rifle, made on a flint LOCK that had been converted. One hint is that unusual style hammer, maybe early? Another is the use of a single lock screw.
In my collection is a very plain Ohio rifle, made with a lock converted from flint, one lock bolt and an early style single trigger. Attributed, by cheek  rest carving, to William Bodenhemer.

I would strongly urge restraint, with respect to any "reconversion" to flint of this fine rifle. In my not-so-humble opinion, it is just as-made.

[wildcatter]

Molly,

Neat rifle, thanks for sharing it with us. Rifle has some neat features. Someone went to great lengths to keep it operating over the years.

[bgf]

I'm not convinced that lock is original, but I do think there's a good chance it was percussion originally.  The "drum" in the photos appears well made and fitted, not a simple conversion, but the lock plate and hammer appear to be retrofitted to it.  I don't think there's any chance a gunsmith capable of the quality of work on the rest of the rifle would have let that lock and hammer out the door on a new gun that they signed...

The tang style is quite late in style compared to most of the furniture, also.  My impression is that it is 1830s or 40s, and that if it was originally flint, it had a different lock...the profile of that plate in front of the frizzen pivot hole is odd, and the hole itself seems way too close to the edge of the mortise.

My wild guess is that the original lock was somewhat rare early percussion and no longer available when something on it broke, at which point the current lock was assembled from the closest matching parts and modified to fit the drum.

Just speculating of course, but to be honest, I think early percussion pieces should be held in just as high regard as flint.

[n stephenson]

Molly, Nice piece !!! I like the whole rifle but, I really like the toe plate / patchbox release . Thanks for posting  Nathan

[Molly]

Thanks Nathan.  The toe plate is a little different and the rectangular release is a little odd.  Cannot say I have ever seen one before.  Certainly not unique as some are but somewhat novel.

BTW, the other Sites rifle I looked at recently had a similar toe plate and the same release button

[Curt J]

I owned a "J. Sites" rifle several years ago, with nice script signature.  It was flintlock, with a 46" barrel, caliber in the mid .50's. The patchbox was similar to your's. The one detail that I found unusual on the one I had, was a "cap" on the comb, not usually seen on Virginia rifles. I cannot seem to find any photos of it, and I'm not sure that I took any.

[Cades Cove Fiddler]

...Gun appears to have a "patent" breech, which could have been fitted by the gunsmith when converted to caplock..... there is no "drum" in the standard sense of application...
 

[Molly]

Certainly no "traditional drum" used in the conversion.  Also I believe that a script signed rifle would probably be an early one.  Sites was said to be "illiterate" however that does not necessarily imply he could not sign his name yet most works I have seen have a block stamped "J SITES". The thought being there was a script signature added probably by someone other that Sites until he acquired the alternative to stamp it in.