Author Topic: German silver adorned longrifles  (Read 7315 times)

Offline oldtravler61

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German silver adorned longrifles
« on: January 16, 2017, 10:15:19 PM »
 The boss wants me to build her a rifle with it. That is butt plate,nose cap an trigger guard. Plus inlays. Of the book's I have only found a few. These we're all percussion half stocks. She wants a fullstock flinter  Is there any documentation historically? I'm doomed either way. But am curious as to fact.  Oldtravler

Offline smart dog

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Re: German silver adorned longrifles
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2017, 12:15:52 AM »
Hi,
I don't think what we call "German Silver" was widely available until the 19th century.  There was another copper and nickle alloy called "paktong" that was well known and occasionally used on European guns but it has a distinctive yellowish tint.  Maybe she would settle for a polished iron mounted gun?

dave
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Offline JCKelly

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Re: German silver adorned longrifles
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2017, 12:18:34 AM »
I would say rifles from the Upper Susquehanna might approach what Boss wants.
 
This one is shown in Capt. John Dillin, pages 83 - 84, rifle #3, plates 93 & 94, St John Collection. 41-1/8" barrel, 0.885" across flats at breech, 0.865" muzzle.
   
and that is exactly why I bought it. First pored over Dad's  copy of Dillin Spring 1951. So I have Got in Touch with my Inner Ten-year Old
   

Guess it depends upon just how historical accuracy The Boss needs. The Longrifles of Western Pennsylvania, R.F. Rosenberger & Charles Kaufmann has some fine silver mounted rifles, mostly percussion. One might consider using a Fleeger flint stock style with Fleeger percussion inlays.

Offline JCKelly

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Re: German silver adorned longrifles
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2017, 01:34:33 AM »
There is German Silver and there is Nickel Silver. The terms are interchanged in common usage, but they are distinctly different.

They are similar, but German Silver, which was used on 19th century rifles, has a slight yellowish cast. It is very hard to find now. If you do find some, a good restorer would love to have it, in order to match the old inlays.

That is because the common, and newer, alloy now is called Nickel Silver. It has a little more nickel in it, which makes it more white. The good news is it is just a very little closer to real silver in appearance.

                                               % alloying elements
Alloy name         UNS Number    Cu    Zn    Ni
Nickel silver,       C75200           65    16    18
65-18
German Silver,    C75700           65    23    12
65-12

The only reason to know the UNS number is when you are buying some from a distributor. That UNS number is the definite description of what you are getting. You might see the old Copper Development Association numbers used instead, e.g. C752 or C757

Depending upon Pocket Depth, real Sterling silver 92.5% silver 7.5% copper is always in good taste. Some old inlays would have been of coin silver, 90% silver 10% copper. It is slightly less white, but it is much simpler to find some coins & hammer them out than to buy sterling sheet.

Offline oldtravler61

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Re: German silver adorned longrifles
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2017, 05:22:52 AM »
 Thanks everyone. What got me in trouble. I let her look threw my TOTW catalog. I was ordering a lock. So she ordered the parts cause she wants a pretty gun. Did see in my book" American  Gun " a few. I agree with Jim an Dave it was a different metal. Jim really like that rifle. Thanks again. Mike

Offline t.caster

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Re: German silver adorned longrifles
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2017, 06:00:49 PM »
Mike, I built a J. Armstrong-ish/Virginia rifle in g-silver years back that was quite beautiful, with lots of inlays and wire. Sorry I don't have any digital pics of it.
Bedford rifles can be done all in silver as well. There are other later styles too.
Good luck!
Tom C.

Offline Robby

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Re: German silver adorned longrifles
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2017, 09:54:47 PM »
I made one for my wife using cherry in .32 cal.. Sort of a Berry/Beck type gun, its pictured in the 'show us your squirrel rifle' thread.
Robby
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Offline bob in the woods

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Re: German silver adorned longrifles
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2017, 11:17:01 PM »
An option worth consideration is a silver [ rather than german silver ]  mounted rifle. Gary Brumfield was working on a .40 cal Virginia rifle prior to his passing.
There is some info regarding this rifle on his web site. It looked like it would be a very elegant rifle, and if I wanted a silver mounted gun, this would certainly fit the bill .

Offline T*O*F

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Re: German silver adorned longrifles
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2017, 12:03:59 AM »
This was the 4th or 5th rifle that I worked on umpteen years ago.  Another builder had health issues and asked me if I would finish it up for the customer.  Parts were all customer supplied.







Dave Kanger

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Offline oldtravler61

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Re: German silver adorned longrifles
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2017, 12:21:52 AM »
   T.O.F that's one fine looking gun. Robby showed her yours an she likes T.O.F an yours. One problem my engraving skills stink. But I appreciate every little bit of info. Thanks a bunch!  Mike

Offline Jesse168

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Re: German silver adorned longrifles
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2017, 09:45:53 AM »
Dixie Gun Works has sheet German silver and flat wire inlay.  Sterling silver sold per square inch and Sterling silver wire sold per foot.  Sterling silver flat wire inlay is sold per yard.  They also have die cut inlays in brass or German silver.
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Offline oldtravler61

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Re: German silver adorned longrifles
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2017, 04:39:10 PM »
   Jesse 168 Thank you for the info. Much appreciated. Oldtravler

Offline deepcreekdale

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Re: German silver adorned longrifles
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2017, 09:06:45 PM »
You might try RioGrande at www.riogrande.com for German silver sheet. It is a cheaper for much larger sheets. I always buy my sterling silver from them too and they buy back your scrap. I buy thin sheets of sterling and just cut it myself with an Xacto knife for wire inlay.
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Offline Marcruger

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Re: German silver adorned longrifles
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2017, 05:39:03 PM »
This may not be the type of gun you are after, but there is a famous all-silver-mounted rifle at the MESDA museum in Old Salem NC.  It is by the silversmith John Vogler from the long line of Vogler rifle makers.  It was made for an officer that served with Francis Marion in the Revolution to commemorate his service, if I recall correctly.  It is pretty stunning. 

I searched online, but couldn't find a photo of the rifle.  Mike Miller made a nice copy of it, and here is a link.....

http://www.millerlongrifles.com/gallery/index.php?action=view&gll=9

I hope this helps in some way.  Best wishes,   Marc

Offline oldtravler61

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Re: German silver adorned longrifles
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2017, 05:56:53 PM »
  Marcruger that is exactly the architecture that the stock is shaped too. Barrel is in place. Butt plate on an lock is ready to inlett. Barrel is not pinned. Just in case I have to move it a tiny bit for the touch hole. When we decided on the blank an I started to lay out the style she kept changing her mind. Go figure. But it's coming along an am getting ready to make the patch box. Second one I will have made. To me that's harder than making the rest. Thanks everyone. Mike

Offline Long John

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Re: German silver adorned longrifles
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2017, 06:22:53 PM »
Oldtravler,

The element Nickel was first discovered by a German chemist named Cronstedt in 1751.  It wasn't until the late 1790's that it was available in pure, refined form, again in Germany.  It was not too useful in the pure state but alloyed with copper made it useful and economical and was called "Electrum".  I believe it was not commonly available in America until the second decade of the 1800's.

Gun made in the late first quarter and second quarter of the 1800's exist that were furnished in "German Silver", then name by which it was known in the US.  So German Silver furnishing would not be "wrong" on a gun built in the style of that period.  A 1770's style Lancaster rifle would not have been made with German Silver furniture.

Best Regards,

John Cholin

Offline oldtravler61

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Re: German silver adorned longrifles
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2017, 10:57:14 PM »
  Long John thanks for the input. If all goes well she should be happy (?) With it. If not I will build her a Tennessee style. This is my first attempt a a fancy gun as she puts it...
Oldtravler

Offline t.caster

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Re: German silver adorned longrifles
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2017, 11:30:18 PM »
Hey Mike, I found the old school pics of the silver rifle I mentioned earlier and took a pic of a pic to load online.
The original rifle was featured in MB (LRs of Note) about 10 yrs ago or more. It was signed by the builders Wickum & Mathews (sp) and said to be Virginia or Maryland made. It was very similar to John Armstrong's style, so they may have had an association with him at some time. Probably made after 1810.
The lock is an L&R Bedford flinter, slightly modified to look just like the original.












And this shot with one of two matching silver mounted pistol's I built for my dad.
Tom C.

Offline oldtravler61

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Re: German silver adorned longrifles
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2017, 01:50:59 AM »
 Tom thanks for the pics. Mighty fine looking firearms. You did very well on them. Thanks again for showing. Really like the engraving. Mike

Offline JCKelly

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Re: German silver adorned longrifles
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2017, 02:47:47 AM »
Longrifles of North Carolina, John Bivins, Jr. rifle No. 5 is a flint rilfe by John Vogler. ". . .  one of the most important pieces of North Carolina silver work existing."
About a thousand years ago I made one of these for Tim Sorry-I-forgot-your name, of Ohio. Used a swamped Getz barrel, I think .40 cal. Mounted it all in Nickel (not German) Silver.