Zig Zag Border

[Nordnecker]

I don't know the name for this type of border. It is two opposing rows of triangles that leave a zigzag on the surface of the metal. I've been trying to do this with hit and miss results. Meek has an example in his book but it is unclear to me what he does. Anyhow-
After scribing parallel lines on the brass, I tried driving a square graver toward the line. it worked but leaves a curl of metal that needs to be cut off some other way. It also doesn't make a nice triangle, it's not quite right.
The other way I've tried is by using the graver parallel to the scribe, rolling it over on it's side while tapping in, and rolling it back while tapping out of the cut. This makes a nicely shaped triangle but, BOY, it sure is hard to make the triangles anywhere near the same length of size.
I've searched and read old posts about nick and dot, been to the engravers' cafe but I'm still in the dark about what I'm doing.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[deepcreekdale]

If I understand you correctly, you will  need a square graver, the width which will need to be the same as the triangle you are making. Just press the graver down to start the side of the first triangle, then "walk" the graver edge between the 2 scribed lines, moving the graver point from corner to corner of each triangle. Practice for a few minutes on a piece of scrap and you will quickly be making perfect crisp triangles very quickly. It is probably the fastest and easiest border to cut once you get the hang of it. Hope this helps.

[kutter]

Your second method is the usual technique.  Some use a 'square' or V shaped graver to cut,,others like me usually use a flat faced graver. Though sometimes I just go ahead and cut it with a square/V tool cause I have it in my hand and that's what I use to cut 99% of what I do.

 Both depend on the engraver to roll his/her wrist in a cadence with the hammer taps (or air powered tool noise!) to lay the tool over into the work and then back out again to get the desired triangle,,and keep them consistent.   
Yes it takes practice like any of this work and what works for one person may be a disaster for another.

I've seen some done with the first method you mentioned. A very wide V tool generally so you don't have to cut too deep and the burr is left like a file tooth at the end of the plunge cut. Pulling the burr free at the end of your cut can be done with practice w/o leaving any signs of over cutting the border line you've established,,or at least the bottoms of the triangles should establish for the eye.
But if they don't come off clean, or are of even the slightest different lengths, the uneven base border of the triangles really ruins the effect of the border  you're trying to do.
The first method allows you to skate the graver edge right along the scribed border line and keep it straight while cutting the triangles no matter if they are spaced apart or touching at their base points.

[ron w]

I believe it was in my 9th grade metals class in school we made one such graver to decorate a copper flour scoop project everyone was building.

[deepcreekdale]

Nordnecker, I see what you are trying to do, I misunderstood your question, sorry. When you said zig zag, mu post is whatI thought you meant Iuse both methods you mentioned as well to cut deep triangles. I have reground onegraver to about a 135 degree V and used it to cut the triangles toward the scribed line. The problem is just what you described, getting rid of that burr. I prefer your second method, it does take practice to get the rhythm down so your triangles are even, I find it feels like when you make your first cut, you go in shallow and come out steep, sounds odd but it make the triangles come out even. Especially when doing the second row of triangles like you are. 

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

May I suggest you purchase John Schipper's book "Engraving Historic Firearms".  He has a gold mine there, and simply describes how to do every border there is.

[Nordnecker]

OK, thanks for the encouragement. P. Alexander calls it a "diamond" border. I had overlooked this in his book. I'm trying to get Schippers' book on loan, now.

[jerrywh]

 All the previous posters gave good advise. Let me first say a perfect triangle is not easy to learn but you need to learn that first. Step one is to cut a straight line with a square graver. For cutting the triangles it is best to use a flat graver a little bit wider than the height of the triangle  you wish to cut. The flat graver should have a 25° heel.  The 25° heel will help prevent the jagged edge on the exit cut.
 There are other ways but a flat is best. The reason that The flat is a little wider than what is required is because there will be times when you accidentally go a little too deep and the triangle will end up with a flat top if the graver is too narrow. When learning to cut the triangles I recommend that you take a .3mm pencil, smear a very light film or oil on the metal and draw the tiny triangles on the metal along the line that you cut. Looking down on the face of the graver place the bottom corner of the flat in the line a the beginning of the first triangle. Watch the edge of the graver as you cut and let the upper edge follow the line of the triangle you have drawn. Follow this procedure until you develop the technique.  Don't practice over 30 minutes at one time.  If you were here I could teach you  in an hour.  Maybe.  Always look at the face of the graver do not look down over the back of it.

[Gaeckle]

Jerry,

How about doing a tutorial showing tools, application, so forth and so on?

[Nordnecker]

I'd love to see some kind of tutorial, too, but it's like watching Eric Clapton play guitar but I can't play like he does no matter how much I watch. I did practice this border a little yesterday. I learned (I think) to keep the graver perfectly straight with the line.
One row I tried I was rolling/ tilting the graver left or right while tapping. This made the triangles come off the line. This row looked like a bunch of sailboats bobbing on the horizon.
I tried to keep the whole tool from tip to handle in line with the scribe while tapping in and out. This helped a lot. The height of the triangles are inconsistent. But I did notice a liitle pile of cut-off triangles sitting on my practice plate.
My scribed lines are about 1/8" apart. That seems a little too wide.
I do not have a "flat" graver or I would try it. I'm using a 3mm GRS square with a home made wooden handle. I don't have any kind of sharpening guide, either. 
Work is kinda slow right now so I'm trying to make do with what I have. I've dropped several hundreds of dollars in tools since Nov.

[jerrywh]

Nordnecker.
 Trying to learn that with a square graver is 10 times harder.  Try it like I told you . Get a flat.

[dogcatcher]

I think you are wanting the wriggle cut.  Go to about the 1:40 minute of this video.     He is using an air powered graver, but the hand version is about the same.