Author Topic: Help Idenfiying Rifle  (Read 7175 times)

Deimos

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Help Idenfiying Rifle
« on: February 09, 2017, 07:27:16 PM »
Hi guys,

My uncle picked up this rifle over 30 years ago at a yard sale and it's been sat in his closet ever since. It's trying to find out any information he can on it. Somewhere down the line, before he bought it, it was converted so it doesn't have the original lock. It has a weird emblem on the back of the stock which we believe to be the early 1800 US military emblem.

http://imgur.com/a/JELn0

Any help or info would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,

Ash

Offline Seth Isaacson

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Re: Help Idenfiying Rifle
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2017, 07:47:45 PM »
Hard to make any solid conclusions from what is available. The emblem just looks like one of many interpretations of the Great Seal of the United States to me. "National Road" style patch box. Probably a mid 19th century. It may be from Ohio.

Are there any markings? What is the caliber? Where did he find it (city, state)?
« Last Edit: February 09, 2017, 07:48:10 PM by The Rambling Historian »
I am the Lead Historian/Firearms Specialist at Rock Island Auction Co., but I am here out of my own personal interests in muzzle loading and history.
*All opinions expressed are mine alone and are NOT meant to represent those of any other entity unless otherwise expressly stated.*

Deimos

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Re: Help Idenfiying Rifle
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2017, 08:04:46 PM »
Hard to make any solid conclusions from what is available. The emblem just looks like one of many interpretations of the Great Seal of the United States to me. Kind of looks like a "National Road" style patch box. Probably a mid 19th century. It may be from Ohio.

Are there any markings? What is the caliber? Where did he find it (city, state)?

He found it in Indianapolis, Indiana. I believe it's a .45 smooth bore. There's what seems to be 2 grouses on the lock + some text but it's impossible to make out what it says.

Offline Seth Isaacson

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Re: Help Idenfiying Rifle
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2017, 08:52:37 PM »
Without any markings on the barrel or much else to go off of you'll have a hard time pinning down who made it but fairly safe to presume it was built in or near Indiana or Ohio.
I am the Lead Historian/Firearms Specialist at Rock Island Auction Co., but I am here out of my own personal interests in muzzle loading and history.
*All opinions expressed are mine alone and are NOT meant to represent those of any other entity unless otherwise expressly stated.*

Deimos

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Re: Help Idenfiying Rifle
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2017, 09:23:26 PM »
Without any markings on the barrel or much else to go off of you'll have a hard time pinning down who made it but fairly safe to presume it was built in or near Indiana or Ohio.

Little update: We found the marking G. Goulcher on the lock but it's very faint, can see it under the light.

I read online that G. Goulcher was a Gun Maker who made precision percussion locks/ lockplates between 1856-1872. So it turns out this was probably converted from anywhere between 1856-1872. Shame there's no markings on the barrel.

Offline Seth Isaacson

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Re: Help Idenfiying Rifle
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2017, 10:17:47 PM »
Probably not converted at all. The gun was probably always a percussion rifle.
I am the Lead Historian/Firearms Specialist at Rock Island Auction Co., but I am here out of my own personal interests in muzzle loading and history.
*All opinions expressed are mine alone and are NOT meant to represent those of any other entity unless otherwise expressly stated.*

Offline PPatch

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Re: Help Idenfiying Rifle
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2017, 10:32:06 PM »
Those Goulcher locks were sold via catalog and in hardware stores back in the day, a very common lock.

dp
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Deimos

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Re: Help Idenfiying Rifle
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2017, 11:02:26 PM »
Those Goulcher locks were sold via catalog and in hardware stores back in the day, a very common lock.

dp

The lock was ground down to fit the stock so that's odd.

Offline Tanselman

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Re: Help Idenfiying Rifle
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2017, 12:25:06 AM »
You have an interesting rifle, that presents several possibilities. The patchbox is not a true National Road style, but a variant. There is a good chance the gun was made in New York with this style box and a single trigger. The box can also be found on PA and OH rifles at times...but it is not the normal National
Road style box, so caution is needed when assigning a mfg. location. The rifle was probably percussion to begin with; the single lock bolt with only a small lock washer is a good sign of percussion era if a more eastern gun, such as NY or PA. A few late flints were made with single bolts in Ohio, but usually the single bolt flint is a more southern rifle...which this is not.

The current lock does not fit the existing lock mortise well, so is most likely a later replacement for the original. However, that said, the single lock bolt on this style gun still strongly suggests it was made as a percussion gun. The graceful stock architecture and long-appearing barrel length (at least it looks 40+ inches to me in the angled photos) suggests an early percussion rifle that may well have been a full-stocked rifle initially, perhaps mid-to-late 1830s and slightly later if made in a more western (PA or OH) location. The barrel may have been shortened about two inches based on current location of the rear sight in relation to the rear ramrod pipe. I cannot see any trace of a faint stock line on the side barrel flats in your pictures, which is at times present when a full-stocked gun is cut to a half-stock, but the somewhat non-standard placing of the current ramrod pipes suggests they may have been installed well after the gun was made,  perhaps when the forestock was cut to a half-stock and a new under-rib installed.

On a well-made rifle like this, probably from the early percussion years, the single trigger again suggests an eastern, or NY, origin. Most Midwest guns such as Ohio pieces usually had double set triggers by this time. The photo showing the muzzle shows a large bore and I cannot see any rifling grooves around the edges (a more direct photo may show more details of bore). This suggests the original bore was smaller, and reamed out later in life to make the gun a "buck and ball" piece that could shoot either a solid ball or buckshot...a somewhat common occurrence to these old rifles, and a more functional gun as the frontier disappeared. Note the original rifle front & rear sights and raised cheekpiece that indicate the gun was originally a rifle. Overall, I think you most likely have a New York rifle made in the early percussion years that has seen some normal modifications as it has come down through the years. Regardless, it has nice stock architecture, a good box, and was probably a better than average rifle in its early years. Hope this helps you understand the gun a little better. Shelby Gallien
« Last Edit: February 10, 2017, 12:31:20 AM by Tanselman »

Deimos

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Re: Help Idenfiying Rifle
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2017, 01:00:06 AM »
Thanks for that info, really appreciated. This gun was found in Indiana. I'm not sure that it was a full stock as it's very thin and narrow. The stock isn't as heavy as some of the full stocks are. 

Offline Tanselman

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Re: Help Idenfiying Rifle
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2017, 04:38:47 AM »
Can you provide specific dimensions for: 1) thickness of butt at widest place, 2) length of barrel, 3) diameter of barrel (distance across opposite flats) at muzzle, and at breech if possible. That would give us a better understanding of your rifle. I am also from Indiana, have worked with Indiana rifles for many years, and have not seen a rifle like this one from the state. I strongly feel it was carried into the state and made elsewhere. Shelby Gallien

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Help Idenfiying Rifle
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2017, 04:51:00 AM »
Its likely always looked as it does. The metal was surely all bought from a supplier.  Could have been made almost anytime in the mid-19th c. These were still in production well into the "cartridge era". 
Probably was never stained just painted with a dark "fat" oil vanish that has mostly worn away.
Would take a detailed exam by someone with expertise to make and conclusions as to where.
Dan
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Deimos

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Re: Help Idenfiying Rifle
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2017, 04:21:05 PM »
Can you provide specific dimensions for: 1) thickness of butt at widest place, 2) length of barrel, 3) diameter of barrel (distance across opposite flats) at muzzle, and at breech if possible. That would give us a better understanding of your rifle. I am also from Indiana, have worked with Indiana rifles for many years, and have not seen a rifle like this one from the state. I strongly feel it was carried into the state and made elsewhere. Shelby Gallien

Hopefully this helps.

Thickness of butt: An Inch and a half
Barrel length from tang: 36 inches
Diameter of barrel: 3 quarters of a inch

Extra info
Bore is smooth and 46. cal
There's a 3 inch drop from the top of the rifle to the stock (where it starts to slope down)
Width of the stock is 4 inches

Thanks,

Ash

Deimos

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Re: Help Idenfiying Rifle
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2017, 05:13:19 PM »
Some additional photos of it next to a Kentucky style rifle - http://imgur.com/a/AsYw8

Offline Brent English

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Re: Help Idenfiying Rifle
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2017, 07:19:08 PM »
That comparison to the modern "kentucky" is not relevant.  I agree with the others that it may have very well been a full stock.  I look to the position of the entry pipe and nose cap.  Quite a gap between them.  Would have probably been closer together had it originally been half stock.  Also it has the nice slim lines of a full stock.  As others have said, a nice gun in its day.
Done right is better than done fast.

Offline Seth Isaacson

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Re: Help Idenfiying Rifle
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2017, 11:02:07 PM »
The patchbox is not a true National Road style, but a variant.

That was my though exactly. Its certainly similar but not the classic National Road style. I'd definitely defer to your judgement as to where it is from.
I am the Lead Historian/Firearms Specialist at Rock Island Auction Co., but I am here out of my own personal interests in muzzle loading and history.
*All opinions expressed are mine alone and are NOT meant to represent those of any other entity unless otherwise expressly stated.*

Offline Brent English

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Re: Help Idenfiying Rifle
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2017, 04:30:44 PM »
Another point suggesting an original full stock, in the picture of the gun's muzzle, there appears to be a plugged dovetail for a barrel lug under the under-rib.  That's pretty firm evidence that at least the barrel was on a full stock gun at some time, and that this gun stock may have been full stock too. 
Done right is better than done fast.

Steve-In

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Re: Help Idenfiying Rifle
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2017, 08:41:52 PM »
Without any markings on the barrel or much else to go off of you'll have a hard time pinning down who made it but fairly safe to presume it was built in or near Indiana or Ohio.

Little update: We found the marking G. Goulcher on the lock but it's very faint, can see it under the light.

I read online that G. Goulcher was a Gun Maker who made precision percussion locks/ lockplates between 1856-1872. So it turns out this was probably converted from anywhere between 1856-1872. Shame there's no markings on the barrel.
This is what your lock looked like when it was made.  I have seen several like this on rifles and even a couple more left handed for sale.  As near as I could tell this one was never mounted on a gun.