Dutch trade guns

[Daniel]

Any one have any info on Dutch trade guns or the obsolete muskets used as trade guns?

[rich pierce]

When and where?  In the New Netherlands, guns traded to Iroquois?

[Daniel]

Right at the time your talking about. 1670s - 1710

[Mike Brooks]

I have one ca. 1720-30. I a little later than you're looking for.

[Daniel]

Thanks Mike. I am looking for info to build one. Pictures etc. I am going nuts searching.

[Eric Kettenburg]

I know there are some pictures of one or two in one of the old trade gun books.  I'll have to go dig through my boxes of books, I know there are some in one by Hamilton but while I remember his name I forget the title.  These were mid to late 17th century guns, long barrel w/ moderate fish belly stock and slab sides, almost a semi-club butt in some ways.  Very plain, I don't recollect 100% but I don't think there was a side plate utilized.  Actually I think his book had more pics of excavated furnishings than those of complete guns.  Anyone?

[Eric Kettenburg]

It's Colonial Frontier Guns, TM Hamilton, some good preliminary information in there?

Very interesting period, and area up the Hudson, when dealing with pieces like that.

[rich pierce]

Encyclopedia of Trade a Goods Volume I: Firearms of the Fur Trade shows 2 Dutch guns of the era that were collected in upstate NY.  They are at the Museum of the Fur Trade in Nebraska. Also there are a good many early Dutch snaphaunce and flintlock gun parts that were dug at Ganagaro (Boughton Hill), a Seneca site near present day Rochester, NY.

Leonard Day has been making  Dutch trade gun reproductions for some years. I think he originals normally had very long, say 54" barrels though. Those are not easy to come by, and the early lock castings can only be obtained from The Rifle Shoppe, if they have them.

[rich pierce]

For grins look at this Liege gun for sale:

http://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/1028/267

[Daniel]

LLLLOOOOOOONNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG

[Daniel]

I have Hamilton's book . I wish I could see that one all the way around.

[Eric Kettenburg]

For grins look st this Liege gun for sake:

http://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/1028/267

I don't really know why that makes me laugh but it does.  I can just see some dude trying to load that.

I'll bet the owner had very, very small hands...   

[Eddie Southgate]

For grins look at this Liege gun for sale:

http://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/1028/267

 I could load that . If I was standing on my roof !

 Eddie

[draken]

Loading it probably wouldn't be terribly difficult, finding a suitable loading stick/ramrod might be more of a challenge.

[Mike Brooks]

This one here is probably 1740ish and not built as a "trade gun". very high quality.
http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Gunmaker/library/Dutch%20fowler%20musket?sort=3&page=1

Here's mine. This was built as a "trade gun". These all seem to have fancy barrels, but the rest of the craftsman ship isn't that great. These were traded commonly only in the upper New England area. There is also one pictured in Grinslade's book and I know of collectors that have 3 or 4 or of these. Oddly, their parts don't show up in digs where indians lived....must have been only traded to whitey.

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Gunmaker/library/Liege%20gun?sort=3&page=1

[DaveM]

A few years ago I was lucky enough to find an original complete 17th century dutch pistol that was handed down in an American family, in Michigan, in original flint.  It is a fascinating piece.    It was in that family at least a hundred years that they knew of.   Not real fancy and not real plain, brass mounted.  I always wondered if it was a trade pistol but I was never able to find any real specific info on 17th century dutch trade pistols.  If you are interested in photos that show the details let me know - some details may be similar to those used on the long trade guns.

[JCKelly]

I'd like to see the gun, just fer.

I would assume that the family brought this Dutch gun to Michigan when they came here from New York state. Might be interesting to do a little ancestry.com on that family.

[DaveM]

JC here are a few photos.  Bolk antiques has or had an almost identical pair that they dated to 1670.  The engraving looks like it was the same guy on those.  I studied some of these early ones and almost all I have seen were iron mounted where this is brass mounted which I find interesting.   I know the dutch did not "control" New york after 1670 or so but assume that there was still a good deal of "trade" whether legal or not.  Some detail features like the sideplate are similar to the gun shown on page 66 of "Firearms of the Fur Trade".  I was able to find only a few other surviving guns by this maker and this appears earlier than his other survivors as his others, although late 17th century, are a bit more "French" in style.  The trigger guard is not inlet into the stock and the lock does not have an internal bridle.  The lock shape is similar to some found on Iroquois sites but I've not seen this sideplate style - would love to see one of these sideplates from an American archaeological dig.  This maker worked in Maastricht.  It is interesting that the tang screw did go down from the top as opposed to some earlier dutch guns.  It screws into the trigger plate below but does not actually go through the trigger plate.  The tail of the lock plate originally had a circular protrusion to the rear that had broken off and is gone, but you can see on the lock mortise where this was and can see the break on the tail of the lock.

The family obviously kept it clean and told me that they kept it on their wall - the story I was told was that this person's great grandmother took it off the wall when she was a child and it fell on the floor and parts shattered - I did do some repair to the wood on the right side of the barrel channel where it had been shattered and had a very amateur repair.  The wood is original except along the top edge of the right side forestock from front of lock to muzzle.   It was also missing the tang screw and rear trigger guard screw that I replaced, and the stock had some other cracks that I stabilized.  The woman who sold it to me had taken it to a gun dealer in their area who told them he thought it was an 1800's Spanish cavalry pistol and she gave me a copy of the guy's letter.

[DaveM]

meant to include this closeup of the maker name also - I. Wilkin.  If any of you guys are knowledgeable about early dutch trade guns I would really appreciate any insights.