Problem with browning rust not "sticking"

[Robert Wolfe]

I’m having trouble browning a barrel that I’ve never had before. On my previous 6 barrels I’ve been able to get a deep rich dark brown without much trouble but I’m struggling on this one. I’m using Wakon Bay TruBrown and a Rice barrel ( both of which I have used in the past) but it’s like the rust is not “sticking.” It seems to rust just fine (in fact there is a pile of rust on the floor below the barrel) but when I think I’m done and wash the barrel I’ve got a gray, finely pitted barrel. I’ve probably moistened it 25-30 times over the last 3 weeks and keep getting the same results. I typically don’t card between coats. The humidity is low and the temp is probably low 60’s but as I said, it rusts up good, just doesn’t stick.

Anyone else had this problem? Solutions?

[Hungry Horse]

What did you degrease with? I bought a barrel at a rendezvous that the trader had treated with something to inhibit rust, it sure did that. I can't remember now what we used to degrease it, but I did finally get it to browned.

  Hungry Horse

[Robert Wolfe]

Soap and water as I have always done. Doesn't strike me as an oil issue as it rusts just fine. When I've had a oil issues the solutions would bead up and the rust wouldn't form - not the case here.

[Hungry Horse]

I would try something a little stronger than soap and water. Lacquer thinner, or acytone, would be a good starting point. I.M.O. If youv'e gotten that many good browning jobs using just soap and water as a degreaser, don't buy any lotto tickets, you've used up all your good luck.

  Hungry Horse

[Robert Wolfe]

Hungry Horse - thanks for the response but I don't understand how degreasing can be the issue if the barrel is rusting and even leaving a fine pitting on the surface? I literally have a pile of rust on the floor below the barrel.

[snapper]

how old is your solution?  you do any barrels with this particular bottle?

Have you tried a humidity chamber? 

fleener

[Robert Wolfe]

This bottle was recently purchased. Have never used a humidity chamber. The confusing thing to me is that it is rusting, and fairly aggressively. But the rust seems to just fall off. Perhaps I'll try try a humidity chamber.

[Daryl]

Sounds mighty strange for the rust just to fall off, even though it is finely pitting the surface - I've never heard of that, nor seen it - might strange indeed.

[Robert Wolfe]

Daryl - yes, strange! Here is a photo of some of the rust that dropped onto the floor. This is about 1/3rd of the rust. A pretty good powdery coat stays of the barrel  as well until I rinse it.

Also, my other metal parts browned fine - but I did have them in a small humidity box.

[snapper]

never seen anything like that.   Any idea on how thick the barrel was when you started?  and now?

fleener

[Daryl]

fleener- good question - LOL.
Stranger than fiction.
I would mail Justin at Rice and ask him?

[davebozell]

I made the mistake recently of getting a little Chambers Gun Oil on my barrel before I browned it.  I had to take a file to it twice before I could get it to brown properly.  Maybe your barrel was oiled or had some other finish applied to it.  It is odd though that it will rust, but not stick. 

[PPatch]

"...confusing thing to me is that it is rusting, and fairly aggressively."

Although from your description it sounds like you have a good browning environment it could be that you need to slow the rusting process. Sounds as if the solution is just creating a crust which is flaking off, that pitting tells me the same thing. Not carding is likely adding to the problem.

My advice is to start over, sand down to as even as you can given the pitting. Degrease with your usual method plus some thinner or acetone. Use rubber gloves to handle the barrel afterwards. Apply your solution as evenly as possible, etc... CARD between coats of browning, this promotes an even result. Maybe try a different place to do the browning.

Good luck.

dave

[L. Akers]

I  suspect your browning solution is way too strong.  A molecule of iron oxide (rust) is physically larger than a molecule of iron/steel and will not fit in the space occupied by the iron.  This is why rust flakes.  IMO the rust pits should be microscopic but the WB solution is creating huge aggregates of oxide molecules .  I would try diluting your solution by at least 50% with distilled water and card between coats.  I have always considered commercial browning solutions as concentrates and have diluted as much as 20 to 1.  I also use a wire carding wheel in my drill press for carding, removing ALL the rust it can.

[Long John]

Robert,

When browning we are converting iron to iron oxide.  Iron oxide takes up four to five times the volume of the iron it is replacing so when we card we are whacking-off the tops of tall crystals of iron oxide so the solution can get down to the surface of the part.  I think the root of your problem is in technique.

First a clean barrel is necessary.  I have been using Dawn dish detergent and water for years, on Getz, Rice, Hoyt and Colerain barrels, to degrease the barrel.  I usually wash with hot detergent/water mix two or three times before browning.  I use a browning box which is just a plywood box long enough for the barrels with bowls of water sitting in the bottom.  It helps to put a cotton rag in the bowls to wick the water up.  I use cotton flannel patches to apply the reagent in a single swipe per flat.  After about 6 hours I card the barrel with either burlap or a small square of wool blanket material.  Remember that chemical reactions are temperature sensitive - the reaction rate doubles with every 10 degree C (20 degree F) increase in temperature.  I card after every application of reagent.  I generally don't see much change in color for the first 3 or 4 reagent applications - just a hint of rust on the carding stock.  That's OK, the base of the steel surface is getting a fine oxide coating - small dots of iron oxide across the surface of the unoxidized steel.  With subsequent application of reagent more dots form.  By repeating the process we gradually fill in the spaces between the dots until there aren't any spaces left.  I think you have to card between each application of reagent to get results.  That's what I have always done - I never tried skipping the carding part.

I don't think it is necessary to sand the barrel down.  Just wash it real good with detergent and water and card after every application of reagent.

Good luck!

Best Regards,

John Cholin

[smallpatch]

You say you are rinsing the barrel? How hot is the water? Maybe you're converting it to rust blue?

[Robert Wolfe]

Dane- I usually rinse with warm water and lightly wash with an old washcloth to knock off the loose stuff then rinse it with hot water to darken from a reddish brown to a very dark brown. I never got to the hot water because I simply had a gray barrel after washing off the loose stuff. Essentially all the rust and color came off. And no, I didn't scrub it hard. Very strange.

[Robert Wolfe]

Thanks all for the comments. I have rigged up a browning box and will try again with humidity. By basement this time of year is about 30-35%. I have never carded between applications before as I like a little bit rougher finish than some but will try it this time. I'll let you know how it goes in a few days.

[bgf]

Probably you're going in the right direction.  I have a green mountain barrel that browned itself while I was working on it, but I cleaned it up to add rib, lugs, and because I thought I should do the work.  It completely resisted rusting!  I finally gave up and got enough cold blue to knock off the glare, but it never rusted like it self browned!  I wanted to rust blue it, so I should have just left it alone and boiled it.

[Robert Wolfe]

Wow! What a difference humidity made. I quickly cobbled up a cardboard box browning chamber (no heat, just humidity) this afternoon and in just 6 hours the difference is amazing. Instead of a light orange fuzzy mass the barrel is brown without a thick rusty fuzz and the color is "stuck" to the metal - it doesn't wipe off as before. It looks like it should. I've browned other barrels in the winter before but apparently humidity is different this year. Thanks for everyone's help. The barrel is for one of Jim Kibler's kits in walnut. Should have it finished this week.

[smallpatch]

I,live in AZ with humidity in the single digits.  Gotta use a sweat box here.  With LMF cold brown, it takes about 36 hours for a beautiful browning job.  Wet towels line the bottom of the box, in the winter, a work light aimed at the side of the box.
Probably 70-80% humidity, don't know for sure.
REALLY WORKS.!

Glad yours is finally working.

[snapper]

good to hear.  If you do end up diluting the acid, make sure that you add the acid to the water.  Not water to the acid.  If you dont do it this way you might not like the chemical reaction.

Fleener