Carving designs

[Mauser06]

I am on the struggle bus when it comes to carving.  I have the book of Lancaster Carving Patterns. 


I won't lie...I've never been artistic.  I know that doesn't make for a great Carver.  But, I'd love to be able to carve.


I can do the carving.  It's the drawing of the carving. I just don't understand it. I don't have that eye.


I have James Turpin's carving DVD.  It helped and  sparked ideas and the concept of the C and She scrolls.  I don't understand how to lay it out and tie it all together.


Any resources worth looking into?   

I can have the Lancaster Carving book Infront of me and can't even come close to drawing it lol. 

[FALout]

Trace out the stock shape on paper, draw in the cheek rest, then just practice laying out your design till it looks right.  Then move on to drawing on the stock.  Getting it to look right on the stock can be a challenge because of curved surfaces you will be dealing with, you will find that some parts of the layout will need to be tweaked. Keep an erasure or scraper handy.

[thecapgunkid]

In a lot of ways carving on a stock is a lot like carving or tooling leather.  The patterns are, of course, radically different but the planning is almost identical.  Go down to an art store and get a set of French Curves.  They will work on wood the same as leather.  You work with those on scrap long enough and technique and recognition will ultimately get better.

On some scrap wood, start stringing your gouges end-to-end.  Make circles, make Esses, string 'em out on some broad curves you can make with a 1/8 or 1/4 inch chisel and have at it.  That will give you an idea of the diameters of your curves and how to flow lines. 

Get a hold of Wallace Guslers  DVD on carving. It's that good.  Look for Jack Brooks and Homer Dangler ( on youtube)

Throw a few samples on this forum and ask for advice.

Hope this helps

The Capgun Kid

[smart dog]

Hi,
One of my artist friends told me that his teachers in art school used to say "learn craft first, the art will come".  I doubt many of the videos will help you with design.  My advice is to find a good photo of a gun with a design you like and copy it on paper and then cut it exactly as possible on practice wood.  There is a reason why art students often copy works of masters, they are learning the techniques used by the masters as well as storing in their brains a library of design ideas.  Until you have skill with the tools and cutting techniques, any artistic expression you have likely will be wasted and there are no short cuts.  Consider purchasing Jim Kibler's carving practice kit, which gives you a 3-D model to copy and practice.  In addition, the more you are directly exposed to the designs of others, the more you will store ideas away in your brain, which will make designing new work easier.  Much of the decorative arts is about drawing from a catalog of basic shapes and designs and then just "rearranging the furniture" to create your work.  Sometimes a truly unique and original bit of art emerges but usually it is just a variation on an old theme.   

dave

[thecapgunkid]

Dog is right about design...the only way I got better was by drawing a lot and folllowing Gusler's advice about building a "vocabulary".

The French Curves were the biggest help.  The DVD's were like sitting in a classroom without a lab, but they certainly helped a lot.

Capgun

[PPatch]

Dave (smart dog) said a mouthful. Sketching and drawing practice are the keys to success. Combine that with actually understanding the inner structure of the separate elements of the Baroque style and using those as the building blocks of your overall design is best. Here is a good video to help you understand the Acanthus leaf, one of those baroque elements.



Here is a Mary May video on the acanthus leaf;



Another vid by Mary on actually carving the leaf (note that she is doing high relief, your carving will be in low relief);



Sketch and draw on paper first, understand the inner elements (scrolls, leaf, etc. of your design, put them all together.

dave

[Ron Scott]

There is no really good shortcut to your layout.  What I have noted is that students find some confusion in looking at the entire design. If you isolate the three main segments of any long rifle carving and draw them first without the details, you will have the general shape. Add the details as they expand out from the larger segments. Erasers are your friend, don't be afraid to scrub off what you have drawn, if needed. Creating a relaxed frame of mind with which to draw should be beneficial.

[n stephenson]

I agree with Mr. Scott , breaking the design down into elements will help.    Nate

[flehto]

I found the actual carving to not be very difficult, but seeing I only fake being an artist, , the designs take a lot  of time and erasers. When I think I've got a good design, I stay away from it overnight and many times it doesn't look good in the morning. Sometimes this procedure takes a  few days but the building progresses.

I mainly look at suitable designs in RCA1 and don't copy them, but come close, especially w/ the Lancasters.

My first LR build was w/o carving, but all LR  builds  since then have carving.....Fred

[Gaeckle]

Carving as we know it here as an art form is very different from other aspects of art, yet still has base elements of design: repitition of form (some sort of repitition), contrast, continuity for flow and design to stay out of dead spaces (golden means).

The carving you ask of is a 'C' scroll or an 'S' scroll or a combination of the two. Thickness of line is an expressive element that denotes emotion. A straight line is the most boring design element on the planet because once you see it, it is there and lends nothing to the imagination. A curving or dashed /broken line or the hint of line is more exciting. A straight line used as a border works, but used in conjunction with other elements is exciting. Thick to thin lines are great, they are always changing. Changing the thickness and thinness of lines (a graceful curvey line) is good, if it is so even, it becomes expected and then the viewer knows what's comming: making a subtle change and vary the line and it is now exciting. The design idea is finicky: keep it simple, yet keep it continuous, yet keep a contrast and have some repetition and try to have it designed in such a way that it meets the golden means demand.

Drawing means muscle memory which means practice, practice, practice, practice and some more practice. Take the book of drawings you have and try to repeat what you see and keep practicing. Eventually you may get real good, you may be okay or you may not. Just doodle some basic shapes at first, scrolls, figure eights, circles, wavy lines, then start putting them together.

Sometimes when I look at original carvings and engravings I often think what gracefullness.....it is clean graphic design, lack of clutter, says more with less and allows for interpretation. Then I think, what school of design did they go to? To be honest, some people have it and some don't.

Just my opinion.

[T*O*F]

Dover has a large number of books dealing with ornamentation, baroque and rococo scrolls, and a bunch of other stuff from which you can glean elements for both carving and engraving.  They are relatively inexpensive and frequently on sale if you sign up for their email alerts.  Here are a few that I have:

Printers Ornaments from the Renaissance to the 20th century
Typographical Borders and Ornaments
Borders, Frames and Decorative Motifs
Gothic Ornament
Art Nouvean Floral Designs
Baroque Ornament and Designs*
Scroll Elements of the Victorian Period
800 Classic Ornaments and Designs
Fantastic Ornament*
Ornament of the Italian Renaissance
Old Fashion Floral Designs
The Book of Ornament*
Florid Victorian Scrolls*

All offer something and the asterisk marked ones are best.  I have more in my other library besides these and Dover offers scores more, including Celtic Designs if that floats your boat.

[Mauser06]

Wow!   Thanx guys!!!


Lots of good info to take in. 



I think that may be the problem is I'm looking at the entire design on originals and I need to break it down.

Take it a step at a time and learn to draw the individual segments.  Then learn to draw a design as a whole....Then learn to carve it. 


I am in no hurry.   I purposely don't own a stock to carve.  I'm pretty set on learning to do some carving and engraving before I start my next rifle.   I don't expect to be able to carve an elaborate masterpiece right away.  But, I'm the kinda guy that thinks with time and practice and learning, a person can do anything they put their mind to.  Determination. 

I'd probably be the worst candidate for building a rifle.  No experience and high frustration level.  High stress job and often burning the candle at both ends and often tired which makes frustration worse.  None are good traits for building a rifle lol...But I wanted to.  And I did. I learned to take it slow and know when to walk away.  I found it very enjoyable and actually a way to relieve stress.  1000% focus is needed and it was helpful.  Carving is much of the same for me...With my crude attempts thus far. 




I appreciate all the info.  Just something I really desire to learn and right now, there isn't room in my schedule to make it to classes or anything.   I have a stack of scrap maple and chisels.   I'm determined to learn.

[J Henry]

 you tube has lots on carving .

[rich pierce]

I'd say don't be overly ambitious with your first carving and do a lot of carving on practice blocks. Even decent maple firewood can easily be shaped into a form like the buttstock behind the cheekpiece.   Carve, plane it off, re-prep the surface, carve again. Keep doing that till confident to carve your stock.

[bama]

Carving and design are two totally different skills that must be learned by the craftsman before he can produce a pleasing product.

Scrolls have been a basis in design for hundreds of years we see them everyday and probably do not even realize we are looking at them because they are so common. This is one reason that when we see a good design it is very pleasing and when the design is not good it is immediately apparent to us.

But because we are not involved in the design of the scroll we do not think in the terms of the designer. I have heard it said that a good design poorly cut is still pleasing to the eye, because of the good design. On the other hand a bad design that is cut very well is still and bad design and will never look right.

The only way to produce a good design is to learn the basic elements of scroll design and how the elements are used to produce a good scroll. This ties into every aspect of rifle building. Without a good design you cannot produce a pleasing product.

I did not know how hard a simple scroll was to design until I decided to learn engraving. Up until then I was just a copier of design for everything I did on a long rifle. I used pictures of the designs but I still had trouble because I did not understand a lot of what I was seeing in the pictures about the design and how it was cut. So I invested in some scroll design books and started to study scrolls. I still have a long way to go in my study but I am starting to understand the elements of a good design.

So no matter if you stab your design in or use a V tool or how good you can use these tools you must know what is a good design and how the elements are used to create the design before you can cut it.

[Bill Raby]

   I am totally useless when it comes to drawing. No way I could ever do a smooth curve. So I do all that stuff in photoshop. Take parts of a few different thing and put them together. Then stretch them out and twist them around however I want. I got a vinyl cutter that I use to cut a stencil. I do it all just like they did 200 years ago. OK, maybe not. But it works. Eventually I will have to take the time to learn how to actually draw.

   Never heard of the Lancaster Carving Patterns book before. I just looked it up and ordered a copy.

[Mauser06]

YouTube does have some great stuff.  But there's also a lot of stuff that is just not right. I can probably learn a lot of bad habits watching the wrong stuff.  I can video myself carving something right now and post it.  Should a beginner watch me??? Lol. 



Bala, that's a great explanation and I think explains what I have already started to experience. 

I don't have that artistic eye to see the inner workings. 


Who knows... Maybe I will never get it.  Maybe I am an artist and don't know it and this will bring it out. Lol.



I can't learn if I don't try.  Like I said, I have a stack of wood, Sharp tools and some good reference materials already...And a strong desire to learn.  Heck, I even have a couple stencils that while aren't perfect, can help me develop the curves and such.

I know I need to be able to draw before I can carve or engrave.




Bill, the book is very useful IMO. There is....I don't know...Plenty of different known original rifles...She drew them to actual size and did a dang good job showing the carving.  It is not a how to or anything. Merely sketches of the carvings. Mostly the carving behind the cheek piece but there are some tang carvings and other parts of rifles as well.


I am going to try to get some tracing paper and try to copy some of those.  Maybe that will help develop my hand and eye for it. 

[jerrywh]

  No matter if one is a engraver, carver or sculptor the difficult part is always the art. No matter how good a person is at the craft part  it does no good to carve or create an object that has no beauty.
  Most of us cannot wait to start cutting away but this is a big mistake. You need to learn to love the art and not the carving. Almost any normal person can learn to be a good carver in a fairly short period of time. The same goes for engraving.  I have a rule. I never design anything and cut it the same day.
 Look at your design a day or so after you draw it. You can then see mistakes a lot better.  Another thing that helps is to look at the design in the mirror.  Graphic art needs to be analyzed. When you see a pleasing design. Ask yourself what is it that makes it look good to you. Believe it or not. This will help you be a better artist a lot sooner. Most people never analyze designs. I know some of the best artists in the world and they are all learning even after 30 years in the art world.  Draw, draw draw. Dover publications has a lot of very good cheap books on designs.
  Beautiful Rococo or Baroque designs and some of the hardest designs to learn. Most of the carving designs on original long rifles was not good.