Engraving Equipment

[Bill Raby]

   I am thinking about getting one of those pneumatic gravers. I already have a few dozen regular gravers that I used to use for setting diamonds. I have not done much engraving with them. But the work I see done with the pneumatic gravers is much nicer than what I could by hand. I would probably go with one from GRS. I have lots of tools from them and they have always been good. Looks like GraverSmith is the basic model and GraverMach is the fancy one. There is about a $1000 difference in price. I am just wondering if there is any difference between the two that actually matters. I have not used this type of machine before. Even the cheap one costs enough to buy parts for a whole new rifle. Maybe I will just do that instead and forget about engraving for a while.

https://grs.com/browse/air-systems-handpieces/air-systems/

[bama]

Bill, one question. Are you going to use this for a hobby or to make a living? The extra money is money well spent if you are going to make a living with the setup. I had the GraverMach with the Pal control setup and loved it. I sold it to buy a Lindsay Palm control setup. The reason for the switch was I found the Lindsay to be easier to move from my engraving bench to my rifle building bench, the Lindsay is much more portable. Both are very good machines.

[JTR]

Bill, PM sent
John

[Bill Raby]

   This would just be for hobby. I likely would only use it for guns and I have no intention of ever trying to pay bills by doing it. I enjoy making guns and would like to keep it that way. Soon as I try to make some money from it, it turns into a job. And that would just suck all the fun right out of it. I have done some engraving, but not much. If I do get into it, I have the rest of my life to figure it out. Never used these air powered engravers before.

   Just had a look at the Lindsay machines. Looks like the cheapo models are about the same price for both Lindsay and GRS. What are the differences? I have lots of experience with the foot controlled tools, but have not used the hand controls. Seems like it would be awkward. Is there any advantage to the palm control or is it just a matter of what you get used to? Closest I have come to for this sort of work on a regular basis is diamond setting. Take a flat sheet of gold or platinum and set a whole bunch of tiny diamonds packed together as close as possible. It is mostly raising up beads up metal to push down over the stones to hold them in. Then cutting away the excess metal. I guess you could say it is closer to carving. But it is pretty much all the same type of tools and I would guess much the same techniques. I spent a lot of years doing that. So I am pretty sure I would be capable of doing a good job at engraving with a bit of practice.

   Starting to think I may be best off practicing it by hand for a little while. I already have a whole mess of gravers. If I can manage to do a decent job with that, then get the fancy machines. I don't mind spending money on good tools, but money is starting to become an issue. Just bought a house a few months ago. Of course that comes with a few trips to home depot every week. Then we need new furniture and dishes and lights and such. At least that is what I was told. I don't much care if the furniture matches anything or not. Running out of money. Fancy graver machine is the cost of a new set of rifle parts. Decisions, decisions. I wonder if I can convince the girlfriend that one of these things only costs about $75?

[jerrywh]

 If You do not intend to be a professional engraver I would go with the graver Smith.  In my opinion the Gravermach is the top of the line for pros. The Lyndsay system is good but expensive and it has limitations. I personally prefer a foot control over the hand control.
  As far as the expense goes think of this. The most I ever sold a gun for without engraving was $1700.00.  The average engraved longrifle will sell for $6000.00 to $20,000. European high art guns will sell for 10 times that amount.
 All things considered Engraving equipment is very cheap but it will not make you an engraver. You can buy a Eric Clapton guitar but it won't make you Eric Clapton. If you don't have the dedication don't wast your money.
 

[Bill Raby]

   So what is it about the Gravermach that makes it top of the line and double the price? From what I can tell the difference is that it can run two hand pieces, gives you the choice of hand or foot control, and can run a rotary hand piece. Is there any difference other than that?

[jerrywh]

   So what is it about the Gravermach that makes it top of the line and double the price? From what I can tell the difference is that it can run two hand pieces, gives you the choice of hand or foot control, and can run a rotary hand piece. Is there any difference other than that?

  Yes there is. The Gravermach has a fine tuner.  They can be adjusted to a give very smooth start. There are times when other machines will want to take off suddenly. This can cause some big problems on fine engraving like portraits and very detailed objects. For example, if you were engraving a deer that was only 1/2" long many of the cuts are no more than .050" of less long. A machine that starts too fast or sticks will cause you to over run the cut. These type of mistakes are very difficult to fix. A Gravermach eliminates this sort of problem. They are a joy to run.

[dogcatcher]

I am disabled, 2 bum legs so anything with a foot pedal is out of the question.  The Lindsey hand control was out of my price range.  I found that a Foredom Powergraver at less than $500 was the best I could do, the next was the NGraver system that is similar to the Foredom Powergraver.  The difference between these and the pneumatic is the cable of the Foredom is not as flexible.  I got to play with both, I chose the NGraver because of the hand piece,  I spent a little over $500.  I attached my electronic router speed controller to the power head to eliminate the foot control unit.  A few years later I added a Foredom hand piece to the tool box. 

What I like is I can grab the tool box with the engraving stuff in it, and can use it anywhere I have access to electricity.  I don't need to haul a long an air compressor.  The other Foredom hand pieces work on the cable so I can use carving burs etc..  I also have diamond discs that I can use on the hand pieces so I also have my power hone available with speed control.  The tool box is about 1x1x2, with all of the junk in it, probably weighs in at 25 to 30 pounds.  All I need to set up is electricity, a table and a chair.

[Bill Raby]

   So what is it about the Gravermach that makes it top of the line and double the price? From what I can tell the difference is that it can run two hand pieces, gives you the choice of hand or foot control, and can run a rotary hand piece. Is there any difference other than that?

  Yes there is. The Gravermach has a fine tuner.  They can be adjusted to a give very smooth start. There are times when other machines will want to take off suddenly. This can cause some big problems on fine engraving like portraits and very detailed objects. For example, if you were engraving a deer that was only 1/2" long many of the cuts are no more than .050" of less long. A machine that starts too fast or sticks will cause you to over run the cut. These type of mistakes are very difficult to fix. A Gravermach eliminates this sort of problem. They are a joy to run.

   Is the fine tuner on the Gravermach enough to where you are better off just getting that over the Graversmith? Portraits and 1/2 inch deer would be out of the question for a while. But I certainly would plan on doing that sort of thing when I have the ability. Makes no sense to get the Graversmith if it would not be able to do the job as skill increases over time. Then I just have to get the Gravermach later on anyway. What are the pros and cons of the Lindsay engravers vs GRS? Lindsay has some foot control ones for about $600 and $1100.

   I am starting think that the way to go would be to just start working with the regular gravers and mallet. I already have everything for that. See if I can get skill at engraving and figurte out a bit better exactly what I would want to do with it.

[elkhorne]

Bill,
A voice tote wise, I visited GRS several years ago and they convinced me to take one of their classes on engraving. I purchased one of the GraverMax SC at the time and power hone set up. They are very high quality tools. I went to the class and, even though I said I wanted to learn early colonial style engraving, the class was taught by a high end knife maker and most of the class was aspiring to a profession of modern engraving. I did learn some good basics, it was far from the type engraving one sees on colonial guns. I have practiced but still need a lot more. Have thought about the Lindsay system but hard to justify another system just because it is more portable especially on retired pay! I have done some chase engraving but feel the pneumatic gives one a step ahead when we do not have years to learn the true skill of chase engraving. Whatever you go with, practice, practice, practice! Good luck but also consider taking a class like Jim Kibler's at WKU to learn composition and the art of chase engraving or John Shippers class when he teaches it, that will go a long way in helping you inspite if what machine you choose.
elkhorne

[jerrywh]

       Let me say this. Nobody can make you an engraver except you. Engraving consists of two components cutting metal and art.  Teaching engraving is teaching how to cut metal.  Just because a person is a good engraver doesn't mean he can teach it very well.  Teaching and engraving are two different fields. I personally know some of the best engravers in the world and some of them can't teach it very well  at all.   Once you learn how to cut the metal what you cut and how you cut it is up to you. A master engraver can cut anything he so desires.  And cutting can be very complex.   I can cut a crude looking colonial patch box or a bolino scene that looks like a photograph.   The difference is up to the engraver.  GRS doesn't teach art they teach engraving or how to cut metal in different techniques. You can learn about 10 times as much with a one on one lesson as you can in a group class.  It cost more money but you get more for the money.   John shippers is a very good engraver and a very good teacher. What he doesn't know you probably don't need.
 Almost all the others teach very basic hammer and chisel. It is good for most of what you guys want to know.
  I teach one on one lessons when I have time.  I don't teach hammer and chisel.   It is too basic for me to give up the time.  My teaching is beyond the basics and on a professional level.   I also teach multi colored precious metal inlay and overlay along with inlay repairs.   Iron inlays on iron or brass on brass.
 I might add that almost all of what we now know was known by some European engravers by the early 1700s.
   PS- Hammer and chisel is a good way to start. Most of the master engravers I know started out that way including myself.  If your not going to be a professional engraver you don't need a gravermach. If you only intend to engrave longrifles a graversmith will be great and last you the rest of your life. You will soon wish you had a sharpening system. Very soon.

[Paddlefoot]

Jerry's advice on the sharpening system is golden. I'm not at all a good engraver but I wasn't making any progress at all until I got the Lindsey sharpening jigs and was able to get a consistent point on my hand powered tools. It will save you much frustration and you will not be sitting and wondering if you are not making progress because your tool is wrong or do you simply have no talent for it. The sharpening system will save a lot of tinkering time that you can be using for practice where it matters.

[CowboyCS]

When I apprenticed I learned hammer and chisel first, after I was failry proficient with H&C,  then I was taught airgraving on GRS equipment but when it came time to buy I visited both GRS and Lindsay(I live about an equal distance from both) and I went with Lindsay Classic with foot control.

There were a couple of deciding factors for me, the first was the experience I had with running GRS equipment and the customer service that GRS had given the man I apprenticed under, he didn't give them a glowing review for the way they treated him. The second reason is cost...having run both I decided I would spend less money with Lindsay to get a single machine that does the same as a GRS machine with 3 separate hand pieces(you have to buy the extra hand pieces separate) and the Lindsay is portable(only requiring an air or co2 bottle, I've even run mine on argon at a show once) while the GRS requires both air and electricity to run(not as easily portable).

Have a quick look at the first video at this link. It is Steve Lindsay presenting it so I will grant any bias anyone wants to call but the comparison is stilll pretty plain. http://www.airgraver.com/video.htm

Steve Lindsay has treated me great every step of the way, from opening up his home/shop to me on a Sunday afternoon(the day before he had to leave for a show in New York) so I could come up and try his equipment(he walked me through the entire set-up while I was there) to the great customer service I have had. Like when I got a new puppy and she chewed up the air hoses from the foot control to the hand piece. I called him up and he sent me new hose no charge for hose or shipping. I know that hose is a cheap and small thing but that is really good cusotmer service to cover stuff like that when the customer admts it was clearly his fault.

I will add that while I learned how to hand sharpen graver blanks, it wasn't until I bought the Lindsay Templates that I really knew how much time I was wasting and how frustrating sharpeneing gravers was. It's never a bad thing to learn how to hand sharpen your tools but his templates will really spoil you for consistent repeateable sharpening in a fraction of the time it takes to do it by hand. Even if all you do is learn H&C I would still recommend the Templates for sharpening.

Hope this helps.