V gouge

[Mauser06]

New to carving and feeling my way around.


I have a Homer Dangler video and he shows some carving.  He uses a large V gouge with forward swept wings. It looks BIG. Maybe 1/2"?  Can't tell if it's 45 or 60 degrees. He uses it to outline his carving to relieve.  He makes it look easy.  I know, it certainly takes time and practice and experience.


I have a couple small V gouges.  I can actually fair "ok" for just starting.


Figured I'd ask you guys, as I know we have some VERY talented Carver's here. 

What Happened gouges are you using?  Width?  Degree of the angle?   Does anyone make a forward swept V gouge?  Or is that something you have to cut into a normal one? 


I found it interesting that Homer Dangler uses a tool that looks huge, but makes a very fine line. 


I have tried stabbing as well.  I don't know what I like more.  The V gouge is much quicker for me. I know the pros and cons of each method.  I think with a proper V gouge that I might be real happy with that method.  I know the sharpness and properly sharpening the V gouge is huge and not the easiest thing to get right.

[thecapgunkid]

I botched a lot of practice scraps before I got Homer's V gouge technique to satisfaction.  His finesse and light hammer technique is a very touchy-feely method and you may have to end up accepting the notion that some guys are gifted and some are not.  I am in the not pile.

IN another thread I posted getting Wallace Gusler's DVD and Jack Brooks' DVD.  Do it.

Don't shoot yore eye out, kid

The Capgun Kid

[smart dog]

Hi,
You need to learn how to use the V tool and stabbing in.  Stabbing a design is more precise and becomes more important when your design become more complicated with intersecting tendrils and volutes, and other details. Moreover, for some details you may want to enhance a 3-D relief effect by slightly undercutting edges. That is easier with an edge that is perpendicular to the background rather than at an angle such as produced by a V tool.  You need to know both methods.

dave

[rich pierce]

I'm sure Homer knew what he was doing but a v gouge with forward wings cuts on the sides before it cuts on the bottom. That can make it hard (for me) to terminate a cut. My v gouge is about 3/16 wide I would guess. You can bet Homer's gouge got that way from sharpening.

[oldtravler61]

  It's funny I can draw the design no problem an it looks good. Trouble starts when I pick up the tool's. Maybe that's why I like smr rifles shop well.   Lol   Oldtravler

[PPatch]

Sounds to me as if Homer's V gouge was purpose shaped by him to suit his method of carving. A straight sided 60 degree 1/8th or 3/16ths wide gouge will get the job done just as well. The gouge MUST be sharp, here is a video on sharpening a V gouge;



here is a vid on using one;



Practice on some scrap before tackling the real deal.

dave

[Mauser06]

Thanx all!    Great info as usual!   




I purposely don't have a rifle to build right now.   Determined to learn some basic carving and then engraving before I start another rifle.   


I understand both the stabbing and v gouge uses and ups and downs of both.  And I am practicing both. 


I have a stack of scrap maple and chisels and a pile of determination.   


I find the v gouge to be quicker and for me, it's actually cleaner to do when cutting an incised line or border to relieve.  Tiny details and tight radiuses...Not so much.

I feel it's a benefit to learn both techniques and learn what works and what doesn't for myself.   

[PPatch]

Mauser06; I find driving the gouge with a 1lb mallet works best for me. Just bump it along gently like.

dave

[WadePatton]

Mauser06; I find driving the gouge with a 1lb mallet works best for me. Just bump it along gently like.

dave

gently he says.  one pound he says.  wait. what? 

[Acer Saccharum]

For detailing, I use a Pfiel #16 sweep vee x 1 mm wide for small stuff. It's so narrow, the wings don't obstruct your view, you can see where you're going. But you can't cut very deep with it, because it's so small.

A 3mm #12 or #15 sweep would be good all around size for carving. Up to, but no bigger than, a 6mm would be useful for carving in my opinion. Approximately 45 to 60 degree vee is good for carving.

A small tool helps you judge how deep you're cutting, which is harder, but possible, to do with a larger tool.




Sharp tools make hard maple behave. This is a mix of Vee tool and stabbing with gouges. Fun mix of cuts make it interesting to view (and do!)

[Mauser06]

PPatch, that's the method I am using.  Not sure if my mallet is 1lb or not lol.  I found a hard maple log about what size I thought it should be and carved out the handle. It seems to work well.  I don't have to look at it. I can focus on the cut and gently tap the mallet. 



Acer, Thanx for the input!  That's what I was really questioning.  The variety is endless.  45-60-90 degree sweeps of varying sizes...I bought a couple old used ones. After learning more, and trying them out, I questioned if they were actually the right tool for the job.... Especially after seeing Homer Dangler use that giant gouge with forward swept wings. Man, he makes it look simple! Lol.


Guessing you use the 1mm for incised lines and moldings and the like?  Could even use it to outline a relief carving and go back over that line with the bigger tool to make the cut a little deeper and wider if needed. 


I may have to purchase a new V gouge or 2. That way they should come with the angles properly sharpened.  That'd help me. I can sharpen tools and knives.  But that V gouge is a little different and even after looking at tutorials and videos, I'm not sure if have it completely right. A new one, with those angles properly set, I can manage to maintain.... Opposed to trying to correct tools that may be over 100 years old and sharpened countless times. 

[PPatch]

"...I can manage to maintain.... Opposed to trying to correct tools that may be over 100 years old and sharpened countless times. "

It is six of one and a half dozen of another... New gouges are going to need at least honing, if not flat out sharpened before using. A used one will probably need shaping then sharpening. When a gouge point gets out of whack just angle it vertically, nose down, and use a coarse stone to flatten and square up the point, then, beginning with the coarse stone and progressing to the finer, sharpen/hone it as you normally would.

The point being, new or old, don't be afraid to start all over with a gouge or chisel that isn't shaped, or working, the way you want it.

dave

[Daryl]

You guys and the lady all work too slow.  Maybe that is why I don't carve or build ML's?

[Mauser06]

Thanx Dave.  Good to know.  I'd expect new tools, especially higher end like pfeil etc, to come properly shaped and sharp. Maybe a fine honing/stroping.  I am still in the process of trying to work with the old tools. I have wasted a lot of time to correct them..I was hesitant to take them down and start fresh...Though I know that's usually the easier way to get the right angle and sharpness brought back.

[Acer Saccharum]

Pfiel tools come sharp, but you really need to learn how to sharpen your own.

I had a Pfiel vee tool, brand new, factory sharp, and it cut beautifully... for a while. Suddenly the edge just broke off on one side. When I looked under a loupe, and I saw the edge was no more than a stout burr. I had to grind the whole face back to solid metal and re-conform the whole cutting geometry. I think Pfiel makes heavy use of buffing to sharpen their tools. Nothing wrong with that, but I imagine after buffing tiny vee tools all day long, you're going to miss one once in a while.

I don't like the 'wings' leading the point by much, if at all. As Rich says, this could tend to tear wood on the turns.

When buying new tools, I like to inspect the inside bottom of the Vee. It should be a very tiny radius where the two sides meet at the bottom, the smaller the better. Some vee tools have a large radius, and you will never ever be able to cut a fine line with this tool, unless you file,stone,lap, grind the junction to a very small radius. It's much more efficient to buy a tool with a small radius already made.

Look at the Pfiel profiles before selecting the sweep and size. Some show a sharp vee, and others, inexplicably, have a radius bottom vee. Maybe not everyone is carving gunstocks.

[Mauser06]

Thanx Acer!   I'm going to continue to work with the tools I have. I know a chisel or gouge or knife isn't of much use if it's not sharp.


So you want a small radius on the inside of the V....The bottom of the tool...The outside.. is supposed to be a radius as well, not pointed​...Correct?   



On the bottom of the tool, I've seen tools that were straight.  Others I've seen have a bevel up away from the wood.  If that makes sense.   

I need to look at the tutorials and some other resources on sharpening the V gouge.

[Paul Hamler]

Here a you tube video on a different approach to sharpening a v gouge.

[jerrywh]

 Here is a few tips and comments  that work well for me.  I use a V gouge and a stabbing in combination when carving in relief. I like the backward swept V gouge because I can see better where the line is. I do not cut to the line when using the V gouge but stay away from it by at least 1/32". Then I take all the background down and smooth it out or treat it. Then I go back and stab to the line of the design. If you stab in at first it can break the wood in the design, especially on thin corners or fragile portions. I don't profess to be a master carver but This technique has helped me a lot. My V gouges are very small. My smallest one is 1/16".  I am convinced that picking the right piece of wood is the most important part of carving.

[thecapgunkid]

Mr. Dangler, Mr. Gusler and Mr. House all produced fine videos on carving with different methods, the latter being part of his two disc set.

They're worth it as entertainment as well as instruction.

The best and worst carving I have done, being more of a hobbiest craftsman rather than  a pro, have been with V gouges.  The keys proved to be how sharp the gouge was and how controlled I could be with the mallet or the push.  Shallow helped, as did learning how to tilt the gouge so it'd take out just enough wood to enhance relief.   Being slow on the uptake, I watched 'em all several times before I got better at this.

I mentally began to associate Homer's method with the early guns where incise and relief were blended, but I don't have enough detail or knowledge to confirm.

From 1750 through the Rev, what does the blend appear to be like and how much gouge work is evident?

Thanks

Capgun

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I like the little V gouges that Brownell's sells, in conjunction with their chequering equipment.  They have both 60 deg. and 90 deg. but I prefer the 60 degree for incised carving.  They come super sharp, but as others have pointed out, one needs to learn how to re-sharpen them.  I made a leather strop that has a 60 degree bevel set upright in a block of wood, for stropping the inside of the V gouge. The leather is impregnated with French jeweller's rouge.  These little chisels cut very cleanly and with control.  Here's a couple images of me working on the wrist of my Kuntz rifle.  You can see by the length and uniformity of the curl that they cut nicely.  I hand push rather than tap the chisels.




You can click twice on the image to enlarge for detail.

[Flint62Smoothie]

You can click twice on the image to enlarge for detail.

Zowie, I'll say ... that's QUITE the close up! Very impressive work.

And thank you ... you just inspired me to try my hand at it!

[Dave B]

Jerry makes a good point about the qualities of the wood you choose. John Bivins talked about one of his carving classes was just settling in for the start of the first day and he had Quaker stocks sent to him at the school he looked them all over and picked up one and said this piece is harder than a witches heart. Why don[t you all come up and pick out the stock you want to carve for the class. the only stock left was the one he had pointed out as being so hard. Well you see if you want to do fine carving you need that wood to be hard as a witches heart to cut cleanly. He went on to say that choosing a piece of pretty wood that is soft vs a lesser pretty piece but rock hard he would choose the rock hard piece every time. Not saying you cant carve soft wood it just takes a lot less effort to work with dense wood vs soft.

[Long John]

Friends,

I am NOT the carver that some of the other responders are.  But when I am asked if I am a stabber, v-tool or knife guy I reply with "yes".  I use all three tools depending on what aspect of the carving I happen to be working on.  Sometimes I use stabbing to help define a line or sharpen an interior corner.  Other times I use the V-tool, usually 1/8th inch and 1/16th inch.  (The key to selecting a good V-tool is the sharpness of the inside angle because you always have to round over the keel of the tools during sharpening to avoid a flat spot at the very tip.)  And other times I use the knife.  All three methods were employed here.



I was talking to Allen Martin this past winter and he showed me how he applies a slight under-cut to outline edges of his carving to help make it "pop" and exhibit a crisp feel.

Best Regards,

JMC
John Cholin