Frizzen too Hard???

[smallpatch]

Is it possible for a frizzen to be too hard??

I've got a nice little  M&G Germanic lock.  Works really nice, smooth, good mainspring,

Just doesn't throw that shower of sparks that I'm used to.  No chatter marks on the frizzen.  Smooth as glass. 

Don't think I've ever seen one too hard before???  Is that possible.

Should I try re-hardening and drawing back??

[Ben I. Voss]

If it's too hard you will only have to temper it (i.e. draw the hardness down)- but i can't tell you at what temp. and for how long. As long as you don't get it too hot it can't hurt to try re-tempering. Anybody know the particulars?

[George F.]

I believe a frizzen can be to hard. If it is to hard the sharp flint will just skip over the surface and take very little hot pieces of frizzen chips off the face. Then on the other hand, if the frizzen is to soft, then the sharp flint will really dig in and break the sharp edge of the flint off, resulting in again very little sparks, broken flints, and sometimes little burrs on the face of the frizzen. Tempering a frizzen they say to heat soak the frizzen for 1 hour in the oven at 375 degrees f. But you have to be aware that oven temps. fluctuate and vary from oven to oven. The color should be a straw color. You should use a thermometer too....Geo.

[P.W.Berkuta]

Yes, it is possable that the frizzen is too hard. The springs may not be "balanced" (frizzen spring vs main spring). Try placing the frizzen in the oven @ 375 for 1 hour (use a thermometer) -- then give her a try. Just my 2 cents ----

[P.W.Berkuta]

Sorry for the repeat from George but it looks like he was faster on the key board - but look at it this way - you got two very similar bits of info - can't be that far off ---

Yes, it is possable that the frizzen is too hard. The springs may not be "balanced" (frizzen spring vs main spring). Try placing the frizzen in the oven @ 375 for 1 hour (use a thermometer) -- then give her a try. Just my 2 cents ----

[JCKelly]

You might want to try a lower temperature setting, say 350 or 325F first, in case the oven is way off. My previous one sure was. Judge by temper color, you should see only a light straw (gold) color, Brown or purple is hotter than 375, maybe too hot. Anyway try the lower temperature first, then if you get no temper color on polished steel crank it up another 25F for the next try. I'd "bake" for at least 1/2 hr, prefer 1 hr, to make sure the whole frizzen really did get to temperature.

One more thing to consider. That neck connecting the pan cover to the whatsit that bears on the frizzen spring needs to be softer than the frizzen face. If your frizzen face is too hard, betcha the neck is also. Gotta soften that part a bit. Otherwise one fine day the frizzen, or half of it, will go flying away.

Temper that neck maybe blue or hotter with a torch, but be sure to use somemeans of keeping the frizzen face from getting too hot. After the neck is tempered to suit you, quench the thing in water to keep the heat from traveling up to the frizzen face & making it too soft.

[smart dog]

Smallpatch,
A frizen can definitely be too hard.  I once soldered a high carbon steel sole on a frizzen that was glass hard.  The flints just slid over the surface without making a mark.  If your frizzen is as hard as your evidence suggests, soaking at 375 in an oven is good but the toe of the frizzen may also be too hard.  It may break.  I would suggest that after the heat soak, heat the toe with a propane torch until it turns dark blue.  Keep a spray bottle of water handy and spray the pan cover and steel if the heat starts to migrate toward those areas.  Then let the frizzen cool slowly.

dave

[J.D.]

I learned, the hard way, that oven thermostats can be off as much as 100 degrees. I also learned to use an average temp between TWO good oven thermometers for tempering.  Moreover, some ovens are subject to temp spikes. Packing the frizzen in sand will prevent overheating during those spikes.

I suggest setting the thermostat  about 100 degrees below the target temp then calibrating the temp to 350 degrees using the average of the two oven thermometers.

An hour at 350 should be enough. It doesn't seem to matter if frizzen  cools in the oven or outside, though I prefer to allow the frizzen to cool inside the oven.

If the frizzen still seems too hard, temper again at 400 degrees.

AS mentioned by others, the tail and toe of the frizzen need to be tempered to a full blue. Polish the frizzen enough that the tempering colors will be evident. Slowly heat the tail to a blue, remove the heat and allow the colors to run across the pan cover and toe. Stop the heat transfer when a straw color begins to move toward the face of the frizzen.

God bless,
J.D.

[Dennis Glazener]

I have had to draw back 3 L&R frizzens. On the last one (forget what I did on the first two!) I found a small can that would hold the frizzen, put the frizzen in and covered it with fine play sand. I put it in the over at 375 for 1 hr. This did not help it so I did it the second time at 400 degrees and it came out perfect. I had no thermometer so I do not know for sure what the correct temperature was. But it made a world of difference in how the lock sparked.

Each time I removed the can and left the frizzen to cool in the sand.

Dennis

[doug]

     I recently replaced the frizzen on an L&R lock and drew it down to medium to dark brown.  It threw relatively few large orange sparks and I retempered and drew it down to straw the second time.  Definitely improved the sparking properties.

cheers Doug

[Frank Barker]

Smallpatch.....Yes, a frizzen can be to hard. I had a lock, from a well known custom lock maker and on the third shot, the frizzen broke off at the pan. Now, that is to hard. If your lock is sparking satisfactorily, leave it alone. You harden a frizzen in Kasenit, a powder that is sold for that purpose. All you have to do is follow the directions. Don't mess with something that ain't broke.  KASENIT
Happy shooting.............Frank

[Z. Buck]

definitely increase the thermal mass of the frizzen by putting it in sand, will also help keep the oven temp even because it wont have to kick back on every few minutes (which will reduce fluctuations), another option is to throw a couple cast iron pans on the lower rack to assist in keeping the oven temp stable, you will still want the sand, just wont need as much

[smallpatch]

Mr Davis said he would take it back and look at it, but at this time, I think I'll try the over treatment first.

Thanks for all the input.  I've just never run into this before.

[JBlk]

What color of sparks are you getting from the frizzen?If they are white and jump all around then I would say that its too hard.

[smallpatch]

JBlk,

I'd say that on each hammer throw, I'm only getting one or two, (on a new rock)
Just looked in the dark, seem sort of orange, short, bounce off the pan.  Just very minimal.

[Chuck Burrows]

This may be a situation of surface carbonizing (surface scale can build up a thin layer of almost pure carbon) - before tempering try grinding the face LIGHTLY and see how it sparks.....

[smallpatch]

Chuck,

Good idea, I'll try a fine sanding drum on the dremel.  If that doesn't work, it's in the oven.

Thanks for your help.

[Burgess_rudy]

I just tried this today on my Brown Bess Frizzen which I thought may be too hard. I set the oven to 450 and preheated it. After sticking the frizzen in the oven for 10 minutes it took on a nice straw color. I checked after 1/2 an hour and it had turned blue! I took it out quickly. I let it cool and put it on the Bess. There was no perceptible change in sparks or any damage to the frizzen face after 15 dry fires. it was still smooth as glass. I turned the flint over and showers of sparks happened on every strike thereafter. I don't know if I can draw any conclusions other than it looks pretty now and it sparks a whole lot better. Maybe I just needed to turn the flint over in the first place.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

After I've hardened and tempered a frizzen, and the polished face is straw coloured, I take a light grind on the face on a 6" wheel, just enough to remove the outside skin.  A newly hardened and tempered frizzen always seems to me to spark better if the surface is reground.

[Dphariss]

JBlk,

I'd say that on each hammer throw, I'm only getting one or two, (on a new rock)
Just looked in the dark, seem sort of orange, short, bounce off the pan.  Just very minimal.

Could be the alloy it was cast of.

Dan