mid bores

[hanshi]

Northmn, since you hinted at a separate thread for the subject I thought I'd proffer some of my thoughts on the subject.  While I shoot more small bore that the mids, I do use my .45 & .50 a lot.  For hunting I use heavy charges; 65 - 80 grns 3f in the .40s & 90 - 100 grns 3f in the .50s & .54s.  I have a measure that throws approximately 53 grns 3f.  I arbitrarily settled on this for convenience and use this charge for everyday shooting in .45 - .54.  This is well under 1/2 ball weight even in the .45.  Surprisingly, it is extremely accurate in all three up to 75 yards (this is the farthest I normally shoot for fun).  I can not say what would happen at longer ranges with this load but do know the heavier loads work well past 100 yards from experience. 

I think the 1/2 ball weight formula works well even in .40 & under.  I get excellent results in .36 & .32 and my usual loads are 1/2 or less ball weight.  I definitely think it might begin to fall apart above .54 as the charges progress toward massive.  Can't swear to it as my experience about .54 is quite limited.

[Mike R]

half ball weight charges of powder seem to be historically correct as well--most shipments or purchases of powder & ball lead in the 18th cent show a ratio of 1:2,  lbs powder:lbs lead.  And for that it must also include priming in the equation.  For example a rifle that shot a ball of ~40 to the pound [~.49] , i.e., a ~175 gr ball, would be charged with ~85gr or less powder [allowing for priming]. As some hunters in the day underloaded and preserved powder--and recovered shot balls--a common load might have been less than 85 gr.

[Daryl]

I shoot 70gr. 3F or 80gr. 2F in my .45 with .445" ball(.45 GM 60" twist) . In the 60" twist, these are the most accurate loads in that barrel and accuracy doesn't seem to change with the weather.
In the winter's colder weather, I shoot 65gr. of 3F or 75gr. of 2F with .395" ball (.40 w/48" twist) - these are the most accurate loads at that time of year. the 'summer load does not do as well, accuracy wise.
In the 'above freezing temps', I use a .400" or .395" ball with water based lube (spit or windshield washer fluid w/soap) and 55gr. 2F. This barrel has a 48" twist. Lighter loads shoot patterns with both 2F and 3F, winter or summer.

All of these loads are over 1/2 ball weight, but shoot the best in my rifles.

The .58 uses only 70gr. of powder for trail, but 100gr. for longer shots, showing good accuracy.

The .69 used well under 1/2 ball weight, due primarily to recoil, not accuracy. From the most accurate load of 165gr.2F to 240gr.,2F accuracy remains unchanged, but recoil isn't., therefore the lightest charge giving adequate accuracy us used - ie: 140 to 165gr.2F.  1/2 ball weight is 240gr. This type of 'underloading to ball weight' is common in all the 'bore' rifles and smoothbores for ball. 1 ounce (16 drams) of powder being the heaviest load used in the largest of the normal bore rifles, the 4 bore, which amounts to only 1/3 normal ball weight of around 1,500gr.

[northmn]

The mid bores or 40 through 54 seem to be the category where one can guesstimate velocitys based on powder ratios.  Also they give the best velocities based on the ratios.  If you start getting into a 58 and bigger there seems to be a reduction in velocity using the 1/2 ratio as a guideline.  Whether that is due to the current powder granulations I do not know.  I used to shoot squirrels and targets with my 45's with good luck.  They shot very well with charges of about 40 grains at 25 yards.  I have never built a 50 flint longrifle for my self but have plans for on the back burners.  By far the most popular round ball rifles locally were the 50's and 54's, which were excellent for targets and deer and black bear, with the 54's for those dreaming of elk hunting.  They also will perform a little better at longer ranges.  The 40 is very popular, but at 100 yards will start to give way to the bigger ones unless on a very calm day.  I tried them all and was going back to the 45 for an all around target rifle.

DP

[Roger Fisher]

.45s rifles and ,.54 smoothies for me; but I'm a wus!

And a depression baby! ;

[northmn]

Another thing to consider is that at these levels the mass of the ball is getting enough greater such that variations in powder measuring during loading may have less effect.  There is also the issue in accuracy concerning the shooters stamina.  Even on a heavier rest type rifle, I think the real large bores wear you down.  An interesting note in BPC is one theory that best accuracy is obtained with heavy bullets in a smaller case.  It does seem to work as a 38-55 may be loaded with a 300+ grain bullet over 45 grains of BP.  That might work with patched round ball and big bores if the twists were faster, but at the current offerings we get pretty standard twists, such as 1-60 or 1-72 more or less.  At these rates the heavier charges that are accurate wear one down less in the mid bores.

DP

[Daryl]

Agreed - but- certain health problems can reverse that. I find a day on the trail, which for us is much longer and many more shots than the trail itself possesses, I find the short and fairly light .58 Musketoon to easier to shoot than the .45 Longrifle with it's much longer barrel and heavier weight. The recoil of the .58, although noticeable, isn't hurting and once one learns to cope, it's easier on the shoulder when loading, compared to the long tube of the .45.

On our trail, some of the targets are missing, ie: broken, knocked down into the snow, buried in snow, etc, so we tend to shoot at the ones still there, several times over.  We'll spot a target from different shooting stations and try to weave the ball through the tree branches for hits at longer ranges than from the proper station. Thus, a 30 or so, remaining target course, becomes an 80 shot day. One of the 95 to 100 yard targets was just starting to show his ears above the snow - that rabbit will be toasted next time - from several shooting stations.  That many shots over a 4 1/2 to 5 hour day becomes tiring with a longrifle of substantial weight.  A lighter, shorter rifle is less tiring, even if of larger bore - for me.

[long carabine]

 I tried diferent loads for my 54 on Sunday. I started at 55 grains and ended at 75 grains. No difference between 70 and 75 of ffg except more bang. Tim

[hanshi]

Shooting is a very active sport and as such is much more tiring than would appear.  Other than from a rest a heavier gun (for me) is more fatiguing than a lighter one regardless of caliber.  From a rest it's the other way around; large calibers take a toll on the shoulder.  This is the reason I like my .45 longrifle so much for a "deer gun".  It's only 7lbs or a little less.  The best of both worlds.

I battle fatigue due to a medical condition and could in no way go through an 80 - 90 shot standing course of fire.  With a heavy rifle?  Bring a buggy!  The biggest thing I have is a .54 and is fired mostly with 53grn charges.  Full power punishes after a while and the gun is 9 & 1/2 lbs!  Life seem to be a compromise. 

 

[Daryl]

Buddy Brad - whom I'll be collecting my .69 back from tonight, uses a 1/2 stocked Hawken he built back in the 70's. Nice job, too.  It's a GRRW .54 and he shoots it well - his range load is 95gr. of 2F with a .535" ball and .022" denim patch.  For a hunting load, he used to use about 120gr. 2F.

Here he is shooting the flying goose.

[northmn]

Essentially the 95 grains of 2f is close to my point.  While not a light load, if fired from a 58 or 62 on 80 targets you would notice the difference.  Individuals also vary.  One of my little quirks is that I tend to flinch as much from noise as I do from recoil. 

DP

[Daryl]

Brad doesn't seem to mind the recoil - but then, he's built fairly low to the ground & has some mass behind his belt.  The rifle doesn't climb much at all as seen in the picture - not even as high as my .45 does and especially not like even the light 3 dram loads in the .14 bore.

Shooting that amount of powder used to be normal for us for many years - many of the guys are getting away from that, though, with the loss of the special weapons season for moose.   Lighter, softer recoiling loads dominate the scene now, and that's good.  I'm liking to see that happening more and more these days, along with .010" patches - gives me a chance on the longer targets .

[Brian]

Dayl, you're giving these guys the wrong idea about where we live with all these pictues showing the snow that deep!  By mid August that snow will be at least 6 inches lower and you know it!  And why are you guys wearing jackets?  That's silly at the end of April.