Author Topic: Question for the Horners  (Read 7721 times)

Offline Ky-Flinter

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Question for the Horners
« on: April 30, 2009, 04:26:37 PM »
Do you sign your name or place your mark and the date/year on the powder horns you make?  If so, where do you place your mark?

How common was it for the makers in the old days to sign their powder horns? 

Thanks,
Ron
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Offline James Rogers

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Re: Question for the Horners
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2009, 06:13:19 PM »
I sign my initials and date them on the bottom or back side of the big end soemwhere amidst the peg area.

Offline Randy Hedden

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Re: Question for the Horners
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2009, 07:05:46 PM »
At a minimum I sign with my initials and the date somewhere on the horn, usually on the butt end.  Sometimes, depending on the style of the horn I sometimes sign the horn in the cartouche box right under the owner's name and his horn.  This was done on some F&I War era powder horns.  I also have a scrimshaw detail that I do on most powder horns I make which would also identify the horn as one of mine.

Randy Hedden



   
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Offline G. Elsenbeck

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Re: Question for the Horners
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2009, 07:15:22 PM »
I pretty much put my initials where depending the horn style.  Either near the base plug or in the case of a screwtip or applied tip in the throat near the tip areas.   Though in some cases I've omitted the date and am now taking that into more consideration. 
Gary
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altland jr.

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Re: Question for the Horners
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2009, 10:13:16 PM »
I place my name at the Bottom of the horn by the butt cap unless the person doesn't want a name there. If that's the case then i put my name inside the butt cap before i put it on the horn.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2009, 10:14:17 PM by altland jr. »

Offline Randy Hedden

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Re: Question for the Horners
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2009, 10:36:02 PM »
I place my name at the Bottom of the horn by the butt cap unless the person doesn't want a name there. If that's the case then i put my name inside the butt cap before i put it on the horn.

Chris,

We sign and date our horns so anyone looking at the horn will know who made the horn.  We also sign and date the horns so that it is harder to pass them off as old antique horns in a few years.

Placing your name/initials inside the horn on the butt plug doesn't serve either of the above reasons for signing a horn.  My customers don't have any say about whether or not I sign and date the horn.  As an artist you do yourself and potential customers a disservice by not signing your horns where the signature can be seen. 

The same goes for any artisan who makes 18th or 19th century items.

Randy Hedden
  
« Last Edit: May 01, 2009, 12:43:56 AM by Randy Hedden »
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Offline Cory Joe Stewart

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Re: Question for the Horners
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2009, 11:33:36 PM »
I sign horns that I make and engrave.  I also number and date them.  For extra measure I have a trade mark that I make with the pegs that is a variation of the one the guy that taught me uses.  If it is a plain horn it is just the pegs. 

I have never seen and original signed or numbered.  I believe there are some Tansel horns that have initials on them.  But I would need to double check that.

Coryjoe

Offline Tanselman

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Re: Question for the Horners
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2009, 12:34:15 AM »
Regarding orignal Tansel horns, which are among the finest examples of American frontier folk art, the early horns from Kentucky are often signed or initialed. The later Kentucky horns, when sons John and Stark were carving, are less often signed, although I'd still guess perhaps 20% were signed. A few early Tansel horns were dated. There are several very similar horns all dated "1809" and I have horns dated 1806, 1818, and 1821. I've seen/heard of dates of 1819, 1820 and 1822.

The later post-1829 Indiana horns by John and Stark were more commercial and fewer were signed, although more were dated, starting in 1836 and going forward to 1850, the latest date I have seen on two rather small horns.

I believe part of the reasoning behind why more early horns carry names, while fewer later ones do so, was how the Tansels perceived themselves, whether as truly professional carvers, or as a secondary occupation to make extra money. Francis Tansel was a full fledged, professional carver, and therefore took great pride in his work. I think this mind-set led to his signing a good percentage of his early horns. The later horn carvers, I believe, were primarily farmers and did horn work to augment their incomes. Thus the lowered stature of their horn work and fewer signed horns, since they were more commercial pieces rather than the early higher art works. 

I think John Tansel best shows this progression. He signed a good number of his Kentucky horns, either by full script name, or fancy initials, but of his later Indiana work, I have seen only one signed horn and it was an early dated IN piece (1832?) not yet of the more "standardized" later Indiana format. He quit signing later horns, probably because he recognized they were no longer the higher art, more individualistic horns he made in KY.  Stark signed very few horns. I have one signed KY horn, very well carved, and have seen another early IN horn with his full name in script. One other horn was reported by Jim Dresslar years ago with Stark's initials, but has never surfaced again.  Again, the Indiana work became less challenging, and more uniform or consistent in its caved elements, probably by 1834-1835, so the pride of the makers dwindled, and fewer carried their name or initials.

Tim Tansel, the youngest carver, was somewhat a different story. He blossomed later as a horn carver than did his older brothers, based on his earliest dated horns of 1836. He never made the very fine, earlier  Kentucky style Tansel horns. Altho he made some very nice, intricate and heavily carved horns early in his career, he always worked in the later Indiana style. He apparently took over as the primary carver in IN, and was proud of his work, and therefore signed or initialed a number of examples, along with dating a good number. But he lacked the experience and/or background of making finer, ealier horns, so never went through the process of lowering his carving standards (until very late in his career). He was apparently proud of most of his Indiana work, and signed and dated pieces from time to time throughout his career.

In summary, those Tansels who felt they were true horners took more pride in their work and apparently signed more examples, while horns made later as a secondary occupation didn't seem to get signed as much.

I follow in Randy's thoughts that modern horns should be signed conspicuously, particularly if they are accurate copies of historic work. It will prevent future "problems" with questionable horns sliding into the realm of "possibly" original horns. More importantly, since most good quality contemporary horns have become collectable in their own right, such as through the efforts of the CLA, the pride of the carver should dictate clearly signed work to promote his abilities and growing reputation. However, that said, I've seen a number of fine modern horns, accurate examples of early horns, with tiny names and/or dates that will be easily removed by subsequent owners if they so desire. And these were by some of today's finest makers. If you are making and selling against specific customer orders, sometimes you have to do it as the customer demands.... if you want a pay check.  Shelby Gallien

altland jr.

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Re: Question for the Horners
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2009, 04:23:42 AM »
ok i just started this field thanks for the comment. I haven't sold a horn yet but i am making one for someone now. i will keep that in mind!

I place my name at the Bottom of the horn by the butt cap unless the person doesn't want a name there. If that's the case then i put my name inside the butt cap before i put it on the horn.

Chris,

We sign and date our horns so anyone looking at the horn will know who made the horn.  We also sign and date the horns so that it is harder to pass them off as old antique horns in a few years.

Placing your name/initials inside the horn on the butt plug doesn't serve either of the above reasons for signing a horn.  My customers don't have any say about whether or not I sign and date the horn.  As an artist you do yourself and potential customers a disservice by not signing your horns where the signature can be seen. 

The same goes for any artisan who makes 18th or 19th century items.

Randy Hedden
  

Mike Norin

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Re: Question for the Horners
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2009, 07:27:59 PM »
I put my initials on the underside of the plug-end so they dont show up till you look for them . I have let a few horns go that I didnt put my mark on , and now I wish that I had , because some folks might say they made it , or try to pass it off as an old family treasure and try to make a few dollars off of someone who dont know if it is new or not .

Offline Ky-Flinter

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Re: Question for the Horners
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2009, 09:18:47 PM »
Well, that settles it.  I will put some sort of identifying mark and date on the horns I make from here on.  I had thought to do so would be sort of boastful, but you fellows make some very good points.  Thanks for the replies.

-Ron
Ron Winfield

Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun. -Nate McKenzie

Offline davec2

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Re: Question for the Horners
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2009, 11:15:21 PM »
I almost always make my horns with a threaded wooden plug in the butt to fill the horn.  I put a small brass plate in the end of the threaded plug to ID the horn as one of mine and the date.  I don't spend much time on it - just scribble my name on it with a vibro pencil.  Not like anyone would ever mistake one of mine for an original, but 100 years from now ...who knows?  On some of the horns, I inlay a copper, brass, silver, or gold makers mark into the horn itself - something different that I have not seen before to ID a horn.  I do it on other items as well.









« Last Edit: January 05, 2020, 06:28:18 AM by davec2 »
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Offline Rolf

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Re: Question for the Horners
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2009, 10:31:06 AM »
Dave, the makers mark you inlaided in the horn, is it glued?

Best regards

Rolfkt

Offline davec2

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Re: Question for the Horners
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2009, 10:45:09 AM »
Rolfkt,

I usually silver solder a short pin on the back side of the metal makers mark, drill a corresponding hole in the inlet area, and then glue it in or, if I can get at it, rivet it from the back side.  In the pictured horn, it is just glued into a blind hole.  However, I have put them on the body of the horn and peened the pin on the inside before putting the rear plug in place.  In that case I use two pins to keep the mark from rotating if I don't inlet it.  If I do inlet, only one pin is required.  The mark is only .25 inches wide and .35 inches tall, so everything is fairly small.

Dave C
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780