new guy with period engraving question

[engravertom]

Hello everyone,

This is my first post here. I have been interested in Flintlock arms for some time. i hope to start tinkering with them more often soon.

I am an engraver by trade, but haven't done much on 18th or 19th century style muzzleloaders.

My question is about magnification as it applies to how the engraving was done in those time periods. When I worked at Old Salem in the John Vogler house, they showed him as having magnifying lenses in stock in the 1850's. Would engravers have used such things? maybe more so in Europe? Water lenses were also spoken of, and used by some of the interpreters for various tasks. I never worked with either myself. I did my engraving while in costume without any magnification, either while holding the work in a pitch bowl, or glued to a block of wood held in a post vise.

As I have gotten older, I find I can take off my regular glasses and get close enough to the work that I can do without my number 10 optivisor. Most of the time, at my day job, I use the optivisor, but primarily a stereo microscope.

I hope to play with some historical techniques down the road, as i hopefully get into building some guns eventually. I was trained on the hammer and chisel, and the push graver, but use air assist tools for most of my professional work.

Any thoughts about period magnification would be welcome. I am thinking especially of how many Italian engravers still use loupes for their close work, and have wondered how long ago that practice would have been common, and whether any similar techniques might have made it over to the new world. I'm guessing maybe for stamp and banknote engravers, perhaps?

here are two pics of some engraving I did on a pistol made at Old Salem for the then retiring president. The mounts are silver, made by the Director of Historical Trades at the time, and the stock was made, carved, and inlaid by one of the joiners on the staff. I had left employment there by that time, but they commissioned me for the engraving. I used the hammer and chisel for this work.





take care,

Tom

[Nate McKenzie]

I love the border work. I always have trouble with that. Especially keeping the spacing from the edge even.

[Dave B]

Tom, Welcome to the board. This is the best site I have come across for your kind of questions. I am sure that there is some evidence out there for what you are asking for. I know that some of the period engraving is so fine that it could only have been done by having magnification of some sort. Lens grinding goes way back and use of them by the sceintific croud is documented. I have seen nothing in my reading to discuss this in regards to engraving in the 18th century. I met and engraver that was trained in Italy back in the early days and he showed me a pair of specticles that he had made to do engraving. They looked like something from the 1700's. They taught using the hammer and chisel for the majority of the work but push graving was also taught after the student mastered the chisel.

[engravertom]

Hi Nate,

How do you cut your borders? Do you cut a line first, and then the chip cuts, or just cut the chip, or nicks, right away?

I have done it either way at times. Cutting a thin line first seems to help. I also layout a border line lightly with a scribe. Cutting a line first seems to take some of the stress off of the flat graver as you make the border. Otherwise, the flat can tend to wander as you cut. You can learn to offset that by how you angle the tool as you are moving along.

Take care,

Tom

[engravertom]

Thanks for your input Dave.

I learned H&C first also, and then the burin, but mostly for short stroke Bulino. I have actually gotten more confident with my hand pushing since learning to use an air powered tool. The extra magnification of a scope helps too, but a loupe would be adequate as well.

I look forward to seeing what others may have to say also.

Thanks again,

Tom

[smart dog]

Hi Tom,
I cannot claim to be an expert on 17th and 18th century gun engraving but I have studied it pretty intensively for a number of years. My impression is that most is done deeply with a hammer and chisel and the work was fairly coarse suggesting mediocre lighting and limited magnification. Certainly magnifying lenses were available but as you know, more magnification requires more light. I suspect many engravers used little or no magnification. Perhaps some used loupes or other means but it is pretty clear to me that they had nothing compared to modern magnifiers. Frankly, little of the gun engraving on 17th and 18th century guns would pass muster today. They also were almost universally unfamiliar with wild animals.  Their deer, bears, and even dogs were atrocious. But that is just fine because it adds to the charm of the old guns. One question that I have is when and why did English gun engraving change so dramatically in the early 19th century.  What modern gun owners prize as "English scroll work" is very different from what English gun engravers were doing in the 18th century. At that time the engraving was deep and fairly coarse. Then all of a sudden in the early 19th century, English gun engraving changed and the light delicate scroll work became the norm.  I would like to know what caused that dramatic change.

dave   

[Acer Saccharum]

Welcome EngraverTom. Thanks for your background story. It adds a lot of dimension and interest to your character.

Dave, I don't know why that change occurred, but a lot of social change was taking place. England was becoming more industrial. Steam power was spreading, mechanization replacing  manual tasks, division of labour, and social class upheaval all were taking place within a very few decades. Parliament was replacing royalty.

Changing, too, was the market for high end arms. Industrialists were surpassing landed gentry in wealth. Changing was the form of ignition from flint to percussion to cartridge; along with that change came to change in the decorative arts.

I don't know about magnification in early continental work. If you look at Boutet's work, you would naturally conclude that it must have been in use (1810). The fine English scroll certainly would require magnification. Before this, I cannot say, but there are examples of earlier engraving work that would be very difficult to do without magnification.

It is said that Durer possessed uncommonly fine eyesight through most of his long life. He was 16th Cent. Gallileo had lenses for his telescopes. Anyone fooling around with lenses will immediately see that they can be used for magnification. I think it would have been natural for engravers to use magnification.

Dave, you mention the folksy look of the animals on early arms. Many of these animals were drawn up from verbal descriptions. Look at whales, for example. They are shown as the most horrible sea monsters, with spikes and teeth and big googly eyes. great stuff.

[Acer Saccharum]

Tom, I also like a shallow cut line to place the nicks along. I select, or make, a tool that is as wide as the points are tall. That makes is easier to get the nicks all the same height.

I have seen examples of no shallow line, but simply nicks formed one right after the other. The engraver must have been following a lihtly scribed line, and have been !@*%&@ good at cutting his nicks.
Then another example is a border made of two lines of nicks, with the points facing each other. Your eye focuses on the metal that is left standing, which is a zig zag of bright weaving between the dark nicks.

A great site for contemporary engraving: http://www.igraver.com/forum/index.php
Many members are classically trained, and know their history of engraving, artists down through the ages, and are doing some unbelieveable engraving. This sites does for engravers what the ALR does for longrifle builders.

[Nate McKenzie]

Hmmm! I just do the nicks. I'll have to try the guidelines. Thanks.

[engravertom]

If you like the igraver site, you may like this one also.

http://www.engravingforum.com/

I'll have to try the graver width idea as a guide for keeping the peaks uniform. I tend to like flats pretty wide, unless I am using them in narrow spots for background leveling.

I attended the seminar at Conner Prairie back in '96, I think. Brice LePage did a seminar on engraving, and his ideas on flats helped me begin to make use of them. When I started dong jewelry engraving, I began to use the flat for my bright cutting, esp. on main stems for script lettering. The depth of your cut, and your angle of roll an have a great impact on the appearance of your nick cuts. I have found that putting a slight roll on the heel helps also.

Dave, I'll try and look into my sources for some info on the evolution of the fine English scroll.

Thanks for a great discussion so far everyone!

take care,

Tom

[California Kid]

Are you guys using a flat tool with a 45 face and a small heel, or the cold chisel shaped tool?
Been making mine from 1/8" HS lathe blanks ground to 45 on one face with small heel on bottom.
I like the idea of the tool width same as the nick height, maybe that will help. Still don't know If I'm making the right heel. Hard to get consistent nicks. Any advice welcome, as I get frustrated at times. Seems like I'll never get my English Fowler done. HA

[Dphariss]

Are you guys using a flat tool with a 45 face and a small heel, or the cold chisel shaped tool?
Been making mine from 1/8" HS lathe blanks ground to 45 on one face with small heel on bottom.
I like the idea of the tool width same as the nick height, maybe that will help. Still don't know If I'm making the right heel. Hard to get consistent nicks. Any advice welcome, as I get frustrated at times. Seems like I'll never get my English Fowler done. HA

You can rent Lynton Mckenzie's videos and #1 will give good instruction on gravers.
Smartflix has them.

Dan

[California Kid]

Dan, thanks for the reply, but I have all 3 of his videos. They helped a great deal but still having trouble.
It's hard to see dimensions, i.e. how big or small things are in reality. I know some people use a cold chisel shaped point. wondering if that might be easier.

[Leprechaun]

45 degree face and a 25 degree heel. Less heel makes it difficult to come out of the cut.

[engravertom]

I have been using a 20 degree heel with a 45 or 50 degree face angle, depending on how hard the material is.

I have seen engravers who use a cold chisel style shape for a flat, but I never tried it long enough to get the hang of it myself.

It helps to develop a "cadence" as you cut these things.

For example, I will set my flat at a high angle of attack, higher than for normal cutting, because you want the tool to go into the metal a bit. I might count 4 taps, then lift a bit more, and hit a bit harder on the 5th tap, to get a nice sharp peak. Then, I will tap 5 more times, lowering my angle of attack quickly, and then break of the chip, if it doesn't just come off on its own.

The consistency of the angles, force, and number of taps help everything look consistent. it takes a bit of practice for it to get easier.

I have found that not going up too high on the corner of the edge helps the cuts look cleaner, and causes less tendency for the flat to force itself off line. A precut border line helps with this also.

HTH,

Tom

[Acer Saccharum]

I use 45 face, and 25 heel , too, you little green man, you.

High angle of attack, go straight in, until you get the peak you want, stop. Lower the handle just so, come back out.  Your entry and exit angles are a matter of practice to get the look and the consistency you want.

Acer

[California Kid]

Tried more heel angle, better. Are you guys rolling the tool out of the cut after the peak of the triangle is formed? Have trouble getting out of the cut.

[smart dog]

Acer and Tom,
Thanks for responding to my question about English gun engraving in the 19th century.  One story that I heard, although I cannot think of where I heard it or can I verify it, was that there were not enough engravers serving the British gun trade in the 1830's so the gunmakers recruited copperplate engravers. Copperplate engravers did not use hammers and chisels because copperplate was soft. Instead they were expert in hand gravers and that gave rise to the lightly engraved but intricate scroll work that we call English scroll engraving. The business of American, British, Italian, Spanish, and German gun trades fascinates me. I enjoy learning how they did business.  Months ago I had a bizarre dream. Acer, you may remember Earl Scheib and his car painting business.  He used to have a TV commercial in New York and New Jersey advertizing that he could paint your car for $39.95. Well in my drean, Jacob Dickert was standing on a box haranguing a crowd on the street saying he could build anyone a long rifle for $39.95. In my dream Dickert looked like Raymond Massey when he played John Brown in the movie Santa Fe Trail.  Anyway, I guess it just emphasizes my interest in how the great gunmakers did their business.

dave   

[omark]

dave, maybe you need to get out more?     mark     

[smart dog]

Omark,
The nice people here won't let me.

dave