Author Topic: Martin Meylin 1705 Dated Rifle on display at the ELR show  (Read 6632 times)

Offline VP

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Martin Meylin 1705 Dated Rifle on display at the ELR show
« on: September 05, 2017, 04:37:54 AM »
It is interesting that the old discussion from 2009 and 2010 on the Martin Meylin rifle was just brought back to life a few days ago. There will be an opportunity for anyone that wants to see this "mystery" rifle to view it.. The rifle will be at Mac Spencer's Eastern Longrifle Show as part of the display of "Dated" rifles sponsored by the Kentucky Rifle Foundation. The show is Sept. 15th and 16th, details are in the show section on this site. I think this will be a good learning opportunity so please make time to visit the show and develop your "Dating Rifle" skills. The show is open to the pubic and is also sponsored by the CLA and is open to contemporary displays.

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Offline lexington1

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Re: Martin Meylin 1705 Dated Rifle on display at the ELR show
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2017, 08:08:49 PM »
Where could one see pictures of this rifle?

Offline rich pierce

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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Martin Meylin 1705 Dated Rifle on display at the ELR show
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2017, 09:26:04 PM »
I don't see any real "mystery" surrounding this piece, other than why anyone would continue to take it seriously.  I apologize for any offense but it needs to be said.  There are enough previous comments and discussion of the gun to avoid rehashing it all yet again (unless we really want to do so?) but I personally (key word there is "personally," some may very well tell me to... well, you know...) think it does a disservice to any serious educational display of legitimately dated arms to include it in such a display.
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: Martin Meylin 1705 Dated Rifle on display at the ELR show
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2017, 10:21:36 PM »
It's common for museums and sometimes other venues to accept local traditions.  Curators can't be expert in everything I guess. And once "out there" as an item of great historical significance it's hard to bring it back. There's a rifle attributed to Timothy Murphy in the Old Stone Fort museum in Schoharie NY that is clearly post 1790 but is displayed as the Revolutionary War rifle that made the decisive shot. Can't convince anyone otherwise.
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Martin Meylin 1705 Dated Rifle on display at the ELR show
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2017, 11:11:29 PM »
They seems to be 2 of these guns out there. This is one of them, it's a Germanic fowling piece. At a 40K selling price it's a very expensive Germanic fowling piece, my own personal opinion of course. I paid $200 for my Germanic fowling gun, in better shape than this one as well.
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« Last Edit: September 05, 2017, 11:15:31 PM by Mike Brooks »
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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Martin Meylin 1705 Dated Rifle on display at the ELR show
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2017, 11:56:48 PM »
Only $200?  Well you better hit the 'books!'  Pick out a name, pull a date out of a hat, and get to engraving!  Apparently will be a spectacular return on your investment.   :o
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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Martin Meylin 1705 Dated Rifle on display at the ELR show
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2017, 12:00:23 AM »
Also, I have to say, this one unfortunately deserves the glib commentary.  Sure, we don't know it all - we never will.  But there's no interpretation here.  It's not 1920 anymore.  This one fits right in with those "1720s" or whatever dated Federal-era rifles in Dillin's initial study.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2017, 12:22:28 AM by Eric Kettenburg »
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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Martin Meylin 1705 Dated Rifle on display at the ELR show
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2017, 12:25:55 AM »
It's common for museums and sometimes other venues to accept local traditions.  Curators can't be expert in everything I guess. And once "out there" as an item of great historical significance it's hard to bring it back. There's a rifle attributed to Timothy Murphy in the Old Stone Fort museum in Schoharie NY that is clearly post 1790 but is displayed as the Revolutionary War rifle that made the decisive shot. Can't convince anyone otherwise.

Rich, I understand exactly what you are saying and I certainly agree with you.  However, we are not talking about some local or county multi-artifact museum here.  We are talking about a display organized by people who very much do know that of which they speak and who are serious students of this early American art form.  And this gun is not fooling anyone.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2017, 12:26:24 AM by Eric Kettenburg »
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Offline eastwind

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Re: Martin Meylin 1705 Dated Rifle on display at the ELR show
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2017, 11:55:53 PM »
Unfortunately, I was on vacation when the ALR Forum recently addressed the Martin Mylin rifle controversy. At the risk of shooting a dead horse too many more times, I’d like to offer the following.
    While some good ALR Forum comments helped support or defeat the existence of the Mylin 1705 rifle as being authentic – a few important points were not mentioned: 
One - The first mention of Mylin as a gunsmith in Lancaster County seems to begin with the publication of Daniel Rupp’s book, History of Lancaster County, published in 1844. On page 74 Rupp states: “Martin Meylin, son of Hans Meylin, was the first gunsmith within the limits of Lancaster County, as early as 1719, he erected a boring mill, on what is known as Meylin’s Run”. Most of the recent research has shown the title, “gunsmith” was often used for gun barrel makers and is not necessarily assigned to what we consider today to be gunsmiths making/repairing complete rifles. Rupp states, “as early as 1719”. This date, if believable, also makes one wonder about the engraved date of 1705 on the Headley rifle. Rupp offers no reason for picking that 1719 date, (ancestral?) however it was often repeated by earlier firearms writers in numerous books, including Dillon, who uses the 1719 date - 3 times in his book. One will see the date in many early books, apparently perpetuated by all publishers’ due to this first mention by Rupp. Rupp never said explicitly that Mylin made a complete rifle – he used the nomenclature of the time and added “boring mill” to Mylin’s profile. This seems to imply Mylin made barrels – not complete guns. Rupp claimed his sources for his books were authentic and he used a Mylin ancestor as the prime source for the Mylin family history and his dates, which may account for the inconsistences in the book. He never addresses the differences in the 1719 date, with those of other local commercial entities or facts, such as Lancaster County having a population of less than 3,000 land owners at the time. Why did Mylin think there was enough business in a remote agricultural society for a gun boring mill—what war was on the horizon?
Secondly - In the KRA newsletter, Richard Headley mentions with some question, the possibility that his 1705 Mylin rifle may have a forged signature on the barrel. He goes on to present evidence which might substantiate the signature as being authentic. His first clue was that the characters on the barrel were similar to those found on a German hymnal found in 1975. He claims that since the book was found in 1975, the supposed forger, a Howard Tefft (1911-1969?) would not have known of this typeface style. However, I don’t think Mr. Headley was aware of the considerable number of German hymnals, bibles, etc. that exist in Eastern Pennsylvania. These books were published by German and Pennsylvania publishers and almost all have Germanic typefaces. I visited the Hans Herr House in Lancaster and viewed the hymnal Headley refers to and saw nothing unique about its typeface. Headley went on to say the spelling of, “Meillin” as signed on the barrel was the same as that he found in the same hymnal. We have since found at least five spellings of Mylin’s name, including Meillin, in many sources. Let me state here: I did not know Mr. Headley, I take Dick’s word that he was a fine fellow, and I’m not here to belittle Headley’s sincere intentions or his excellent work.
Third - Beyond a number of stylistic issues with the 1705 rifle, the most intriguing question is the signature. Headley identified the possible forger as Howard Tefft. Tefft’s notorious fame has been, mentioned in several publications in the 1950s and thereafter. Merrill Lindsay, Tom Grinslade (Tom feels he has a Tefft faked fowler), Joe Kindig, Jr., George Shumway, and Herman Dean all knew of Tefft’s work. In fact, Dean spent years trying to trap Teft and convict him. Teft acted as a picker to the Kimball Arms Company, a New Hampshire dealer. He traded arms with Kimball and repaired/restored guns for the dealer. It has never been established that Kimball was in co-hoots with Tefft, but many collectors began to shy from Kimball, including Herman Dean and William Renwick. I have numerous records/letters of Dean corresponding with William Renwick, Joe Kindig, Jr. and other collectors of the time regarding gun fakes. Kindig once claimed that as many as 13, out of 30 American long rifles were fakes in Renwick’s collection “in one way or another”. In a 1948 letter to Dean, Renwick states: “I know for fact that some very expert faker has been engraving pieces” … “one of his specialties is taking perfectly good European arms and engraving American names on them”. Renwick did not specifically mention a gun, but he did own the 1705 Mylin rifle until 1973 when he sold it at a Sotheby’s, California auction, at which time Headley apparently purchased it. Sotheby’s, who is prone to hyperbole, did not comment on the date or signature, but an exceptional number of signed guns were in the same auction. Renwick, a customer of Kimball’s once owned the largest collection of early firearms, was said to cease collecting American arms because they were too easy to fake.
The date, style and spelling on the 1705 rifle barrel bring one to even more questions. The style of the engraving is somewhat Germanic as Headley pointed out, but the spelling of Germantown as German“tawn” is rarely seen. I found only one commercial use of “tawn” by a mid-19th century German bible publisher whose many volumes could have been seen by any forger. According to the curator of the Germantown Historical Society the spelling was almost always Germantown. More importantly, the 1705 date would be most remarkable for anything utilizing the crafted metals as those found on a rifle. Most scholars claim the brass hardware was imported from Germany and is of the commercial variety found on other early guns, (Marshall, Haines, etc.). No nearby furnace existed in 1705 to supply the iron for forging by a blacksmith/gunsmith. The earliest known ironworks in Pennsylvania was the Rutter Forge in Berks County established in 1719. By the way, the earliest in Lancaster County was built in 1726, which makes one wonder what Mylin’s source for barrel iron was to be in 1719. In my mind, the most misguided and least researched question about the 1705 Mylin rifle is the signature and that astounding early date. As our in-house ALR early gun scholar Eric K. said; he would be hard pressed to find any rifle dated earlier than 1760-perhaps 1750 at the absolute earliest. Remember, the Berks County, Shreit rifle, considered the earliest signed and dated American long rifle known is dated 1761 and most accept that date and signature as “right”.
Should we continue to debate the Mylin rifles? Yes, I think it is incumbent upon the arms collectors and scholars to pursue the truth of firearm authentication to be sure we know it when we see it. The Mylin story is much too complex to present here in total, and the above is only my small contribution to this effort. I’m working on the unfortunate subject of early gun forgeries and plan to publish something someday. If anyone has information on the Mylin rifles, or Howard Teft, or specific gun forgeries let me know.
By way of some relevancy: I have handled and photographed both supposed Mylin rifles and in 2012 chaired a seminar on the two Mylin rifles during Long Rifle Weekend, at the Landis Valley Museum in Lancaster. I also wrote a chapter on the other Mylin rifle in the book, The Lancaster Long rifle.
Patrick Hornberger – eastwind@wildblue.net
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Offline eastwind

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Re: Martin Meylin 1705 Dated Rifle on display at the ELR show
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2017, 12:04:30 AM »
Sorry guys--in my recent post, I forgot digital forums do not pick up my paragraph breaks, bold characters, etc. unless I place them --hard to read I know.
 Sorry, I'm going back to print on paper, be glad to send it to you.

Patrick Hornberger
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Martin Meylin 1705 Dated Rifle on display at the ELR show
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2017, 02:11:13 AM »
Interesting info. The gun I linked to above doesn't date any earlier than 1750 or so, probably more likely 1760, and it wasn't made in North America. No way a 1705 date can be associated with it. Besides, it's a fowling gun not a rifle.
 There are fowling guns from the Hudson valley still in existence that could have been made 1690-1710 so if you want to  go to very early Colonial American fowling guns that's where I'd look.
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Offline spgordon

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Re: Martin Meylin 1705 Dated Rifle on display at the ELR show
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2017, 02:16:29 PM »
Fantastic post, Patrick! We need this sort of frank discussion (and careful documentation) about many objects, their signatures, etc. It's great to see all this information, esp. the letters from which Patrick quotes, gathered together in an easily accessible public place.
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Martin Meylin 1705 Dated Rifle on display at the ELR show
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2017, 09:13:56 PM »
Patrick, thanks for taking the time to post what I'm sure is the most up-to-date research regarding Meylin as well as your thoughts on the matter.  Your thoroughness is GREATLY appreciated!

I don't believe that anyone questioning this piece is doing a disservice to Richard Headley in any way.  He was obviously a very nice man and well-regarded; one can view the piece skeptically while retaining a high opinion of a one-time owner.  There are many, many people who have been 'fooled' by a number of different pieces and I don't see the exposure of a fake as being an attack on someone who may own such a piece.

And I'll sum up once again with the firm knowledge, to my way of thinking, that this piece is nothing but a third quarter 18th century German export piece - stocked in Euro walnut no less - with an entirely fake barrel marking.  I honestly do not see how anyone could believe otherwise.

Displaying this forgery within a scholarly display of genuine antiques is only perpetuating misinformation.

I also think Mike has made a great point; we should be viewing the long fowlers made up in the Hudson River region as some of the earliest of a distinct American art form in terms of firearms.  Furthermore, there was extensive settlement of the Mohawk and Schoharie river valleys by 'imported' German speaking peoples at a fairly early time period; laborers and settlers were needed by the British overseers of the colony as a 'buffer' to the Iroquois much in the same way NK is being used by China and Russia today, and cheap land was the bait (despite the rocks...).  In a search for the earliest potential American-made *rifle* guns, I think this region has at least as much potential as SE PA, if not more.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2017, 09:18:10 PM by Eric Kettenburg »
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Offline spgordon

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Re: Martin Meylin 1705 Dated Rifle on display at the ELR show
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2017, 05:15:04 PM »
I'm with Eric. At a certain point (reached, in the case of this object), one needs to stop justifying the display of a forgery unless it is clearly and definitively marked as a forgery. Displaying it any differently suggests that there is still room for debate and misleads those who view it.
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

Offline DaveM

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Re: Martin Meylin 1705 Dated Rifle on display at the ELR show
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2017, 08:50:14 PM »
I was at the show yesterday and took a close look at this gun.  It was interesting to see it because of its notoriety. The signature line on top of the barrel is larger than I had imagined.  the width of the stock at the cheek piece looked extremely wide. 

But of course it is absolutely not a 1705 era gun.  Just look at any number of gun books showing dutch or german guns of the period - the form and manner of decoration of early 18th century pieces are much different than this piece.  I had wondered if maybe the date was altered but I did not get that impression.   

In general I was pleasantly surprised by the show, and the number of nice (some published) pieces.