How would you gents go about repairing this one?

[Pukka Bundook]

Evening all,
I would like some suggestion on how you would address this Germanic sporting gun.
Thing is, to me it is crying to go back to flint, and Yes, I know in some circles converting back is a no -no!

Reason for this, is the bolster is brazed on, ..with a bit of help from what looks like an electric weld glob....and that hammer, ... only its mother could love!

When I first saw this piece, I was pretty sure it had been cut down to half stock, But I have since seen others with identical for-ends, with double ramrod pipes, horn nose cap and the sling swivel.  One belonged to a Danish king and is in the Tojmuseet in Copenhagen.
No name on the lock.
I though by the stocking up, Suhl, but after a bit of cleaning, I see ZEL under the barrel. Zel is for Zella, and not far from Suhl, and  was a well known barrel -making centre.  It came from an auction in London, and may have been a war-time bring-back.

Odd thing about the barrel, is that this ZEL mark according to Stockel, is for mid 17th century, yet this piece appears to my eyes to belong in the last quarter of the 18th C. 
Nothing new in re-using an older barrel though.
The stocking up looks somewhat odd, yet it fits the shoulder very nicely.  It is not a best by a long shot, but for some reason I really like it.
 About 20 bore with a 35" barrel.  The walls thick enough to be a ball as well as shot gun.

Any thought on best way to go will be appreciated.   I do have my own ideas, but would like to hear yours!

Richard.






















I was not sure where to place this , as it's not just collecting, more renovating....  If I got it in the wrong place, please move.

Thank you.
R.

[smart dog]

Hi Richard,
I am anxious to see what folks suggest as well.  I am in the same spot.  I have a beautiful mid-18th century English fowler that was converted to percussion. The job was well done but it should never have been made because the lock is not well suited for the conversion.  The percussion hammer has no shoulder so relies entirely on the nipple and back of tumbler hitting the bridle to stop it.  The nipple is mashed down and rusted into the drum and may not be replaceable and the shock to the bridle broke it in half which now allows the mainspring and stirrup to pound their way through the bottom of the stock. The gun apparently was cocked and fired in this condition because the bottom of the lock mortice is badly gouged and now cracked.  There is no sense repairing the bridle unless I can replace the nipple.  If that cannot be done, the drum is coming off and the lock is going back to flint. 

dave 

[Pukka Bundook]

Dave,
I know this topic can be a mine-field.  :-)

Back home, we would likely wind up in the pillory for Thinking of converting something back.
In the appropriate place, I would love to see your fowling piece.
I also have some old English converted jobs, but if half well done they will stay as such. Others that were badly done/bodged may get a re-conversion.
I think generations of kids playing "cowboys & Indians' took their toll on a lot of old guns.
On yours, you could drill out the nipple and re-thread.  Sometimes we have to make nipples with larger threads.  Some heat and a stud extractor sometimes works though.

 Not heard from anyone but you Dave, and thank you for that!
My thinking on this one is convert it back.   It handles well and the barrel is sound & rings like a bell. It wants using but not with that mule-faced hammer.

Maybe everyone is away gathering up rocks for the upcoming stoning of heretics.  :-)

Would appreciate further advice on it though, or thoughts on the date

Best regards,
Richard.

[Mike Brooks]

If I had it I'd send it to Pukka Bundook to fix.

[David Price]

Pukka

The is no question in my mind this rifle is crying to be put back to flint lock.  Beautiful gun. 

Smart dog,
I feel even more strongly about your gun.  If the conversion had been done correctly I would not feel so strongly about it.  I also know if you do the job it will be done perfectly.  If you do it make sure that we get to see it.

Keep in mind, In the past I have been accused of being a flint lock snob many times!!!

David Price

[Robby]

I would convert it back to flint. From seeing your other works, I believe you would do a first rate job.
Robby

[Cody Tetachuk]

I bought a nice plain 1790ish 20 bore SXS years ago that was converted. It was just a drum and nipple conversion so it was less involved than what you are looking at but, what I did was remove the drums and made some plain iron touch holes to match the thread, then I replaced the locks in their entirety with modern locks (L&R bailes) and modified them to fit the mortice. This way, I have a double barrel flint that I can use and yet, can always put it back to it's historical roots by reinstalling the drums and original locks. IMO reconversions should be done in such a fashion that it can always be put back into "as found" condition. Having said that, I would gently remove the bolster with as little damage to bolster or barrel as possible, install a vent and replace the lock in it's entirety with either a commercial lock or get a plate from Blackley or Dyson and build a lock to fit and preserve it's history. JMO

[Bill Paton]

I like Cody’s approach. Lots of history is lost with re-conversions. Many of the swivel breeches I am studying have irretrievably lost original data when re-converted. If re-conversion can be accomplished in Cody’s way, no harm is done, so long as the original conversion parts stay with the gun.

For your German gun, Richard, I would just enjoy the folksy conversion as part of its history. Somebody loved it enough to want to use it in the new-fangled percussion era, so did what they could do to make the gun useful again. You will have to irrevocably alter it to change it back to flint.

Smart Dog Dave”s situation is a bit different, since his re-conversion idea is to preserve the gun form further destruction by an ill-advised conversion in the first place.

I used to be in the camp of doing whatever it took to make an antique shoot again. Now I am into studying their original histories, which are too often obscured by well-meaning subsequent work. I usually hunt with contemporary muzzle loaders so I don’t hurt the historical ones.

Presented “in my opinion” only,

Bill Paton

[Flint62Smoothie]

Being most comfortable w/ metal work, and assuming you have a candidate cock, I’d cut or grind off the offending bolster and would install a replacement pan/fence/flint bolster (flat against barrel) assembly onto the lockplate via a dovetail cut into the lockplate.

I’d have the docetail go horizontally across the top of the lockplate. But of course, your layout and positioning would be critical here.

Using a known good sourced and appropriately sized lock, to copy the overall size/postion from, would also allow you to get a replacement frizzen thereof to match your new pan assy.

[smart dog]

Hi Cody,
That is what I probably will do, however, no modern lock internal components will fit the mortice without removing a bit of wood. What I am contemplating is removing the drum and fitting a white lightning liner.  A new drum could be reinstalled if conversion back to percussion was desired. Then I might buy a Davis Twigg lock plate, frizzen and frizzen spring and shape them to fit the mortice, then drill the plate to fit the old tumbler, sear, mainspring, and sear spring. Next I have to cut the lock plate for the thumb slide and make a new bridle and safety bolt copying the originals. As long as the drum can be removed without damaging the barrel, I think it is possible. I'll have to find a good flintcock because I cannot stand  Davis' Twigg flintcock.  It doesn't look like anything Twigg made that I have seen, plus the pan bridle needs to be shaped properly.  I can then preserve the old parts not used and they can be used to fit out the old lock if someone wants to return it to percussion. I did not mention, but the barrel on this gun is a fine Spanish barrel by Eudal Pous probably from the 1740s.

dave

[smart dog]

Hi,
I don't mean to continue distracting Richard's post but I looked at the lock again and rotated the tumbler.  The nipple would have to have an anvil 1/2" or even greater above the squared base to prevent the mainspring and stirrup hitting the bottom of the mortice. I think the lock as percussion had the back of the tumbler hitting the bridle just as the hammer hit the cap and that the mainspring was right at the bottom edge of the lock plate.  I think the bridle, with its delicate shape and piercing for the bolt slide was not strong enough for a percussion system.  I am leaving tomorrow for the Thanksgiving and I will post some photos when I get back.  The gun is the same one that James Rogers recently had for sale on our forum.  Some of you may have seen his photos.  It is a grand gun by Joseph Heylin.

dave

[Pukka Bundook]

Thank you all, gents, for your thoughts on this one.
No time at present to reply in full, but Bill,
You seem to see things very much like I do re. losing history.

FWIW, if you look at the inside of the lock, the pan was detachable, and a Siler pan fits without doing anything to the lock!...even the screw holes  are in the right place.    Must go, more later but thanks again for looking and giving me your thoughts, all.

Richard.

[SingleMalt]

Was the forestock cut down as well?  Just my nickel's worth, I'd reconvert it.  Dave's piece to avoid destroying it, and Richard's because the reconversion would give it back it's good looks.  Peter Dyson may have parts as well.

[Mike Brooks]

Many/most Germanic fowling guns were 1/2 stocks.

[Pukka Bundook]

Malt,

Mike has it right.

I too thought cut -down for a start, but found plenty of evidence for this type of stocking up.
Two examples below.
  They're both high end, but do show the style.

Must run.
Richard.

[t.caster]

I would convert it back to flintlock too. Looks like the original lockplate and appears to have a hole for a frizzen spring still showing.
Document all the changes that were made, and the ones you make, for a future caretaker of this fine piece.

[Goo]

Look for original vintage parts to do the reconversion ?