Question about level, black, incised carving

[rich pierce]

On some originals we see what we refer to as incised carving which is perfectly level with the stock surface but black and clear as it can be.

Was any wood originally removed or was it simply stabbed and stained?  Was normal staining used or black stain followed by rubbing back?

[Eric Kettenburg]

I think you're looking at years of wear/handling (even on extremely clean pieces) and re-oiling/re-varnishing, at which point the original cut lines (which were generally pretty fine when new) have been essentially 'filled.'

[Majorjoel]

I strongly agree with Eric's observations on this Rich, but have almost achieved the same results using a wood burning tool and then sanding the wood back flush where there are no indentations.

I have only done this on wooden boxes I have made and not on longrifles. 

[Goo]

Good carving is usually not very deep, less is more........

[bama]

I agree with the others that years of wear make this carving look painted on. I think this carving started life as a fine incised carved lines that were stained dark and the surrounding areas rubbed back to a lighter color. In studying the John Jacob Sheetz battle of New Orleans rifle I am sure this is how he did the caving on this rifle. Darren and I experimented with this process and that is how we did the carving on the copy. We were able to get close but I am afraid it is going to take a few hundred years to get the look.

[Pete G.]

I think that most incised carving was done with a v chisel and executed like engraving. A problem occurs if you try to use a liquid, pigmented stain because the stain will go into the end grain of the wood exposed by the carving and create a "muddy" look. A reactant stain will not do this but it can be difficult to get it to react in the bottoms of the carving. 

[rich pierce]

Peter, that really helps as I have been trying to figure out how to get that black look without getting muddy.

[elkhorne]

Rich,
Have you, or any others that might read this, tried any kind of "aging" formula like dark shoe polish, some form of pigment mixed with an oil or any other concoction to rub into the carving to simulate the
layers of years of dirt and grime that has worked into the carving of original rifles. I wish Jack Brooks could wade in on this question. He always has an interesting and colorful solution for an issue like this! Good luck and look forward to hearing from others.
elkhorne

[Chowmi]

Elkhorne,

One solution might be to  brush lamp black (soot) onto the stock, particularly into the nooks and crannies of the carving.  Then rub it back to get the lamp black off the outer surfaces, leaving it only in the incised lines.  Do this prior to the last 3 or so coats of varnish.  I have not tried this yet but have been told it is a good solution.

I also think that using a V gouge to do the incise carving might leave you with a rounded bottom.  That seems to be what I get when I have tried it.  I seem to remember a tutorial here about sharpening V gouges that presents a technique that will mitigate the rounded bottom. 

I have not tried, but will soon, either stabbing it in and then  beveling the other side with a knife, or using a knife making two passes to create a "V" shaped incised line.  I'm told if you do it right, is leaves a nice sharp V incised line. 

Cheers,
Norm

[Eric Kettenburg]

JMHO but I think this is being way overthought.  You can stab and relief with chisels/knives or you can use a fine, well-sharpened V tool.  Some of the V tools used for checkering work really well, I used to buy them from Brownells @ $10 each, when they went dull (took a long time) I threw them away and grabbed another.  Eventually I found some good gooseneck v tools that actually held a good edge and could be sharpened without crumbling.  Either way you approach the incised lines, it doesn't matter; if the tools are sharp, you should have no more problem with staining/finishing than raised carving executed with sharp tools. 

I don't buy into anything involving pigments or rubbing stuff into the lines.  Stain with AF, finish with sealing coats and a few rubbed on oil layers and you'll be gtg.  The thinned sealer (whatever you use) and oil will darken the lines pretty well.  Over years of use they're going to fill in and become fairly black, as well as become practically indistinguishable from the surface of the stock.  Of course you can get creative and try to mimic this type of age - and that's wonderful if this is what you want to do - but I just don't believe there was any conscious effort to obtain this type of appearance 200+ years ago on a new gun.   

[rich pierce]

I agree, Eric. Was thinking of simulating an aged effect especially in carving on the fore-end around the entry thimble and on the wrist where the hand might wear things down.

[Chowmi]

I agree, Eric. Was thinking of simulating an aged effect especially in carving on the fore-end around the entry thimble and on the wrist where the hand might wear things down.

Just to clarify,
My point about using lamp black was intended as a way to get that aged look, as Rich mentioned above.

Norm