Author Topic: Hawken rifles with shorter barrels  (Read 6015 times)

Offline L Meadows

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 177
Hawken rifles with shorter barrels
« on: January 23, 2018, 02:58:21 AM »
A wNile back someone posted a pic of an original rifle with a 27" or so barrel,anyone have this pic or maybe other rifles with shorter barrels?

Offline Mtn Meek

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 304
    • GRRW Collector
Re: Hawken rifles with shorter barrels
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2018, 05:06:04 AM »
Maybe not the best picture, but here is a shot of one of my GRRW Hawken rifles laying on a full scale blow-up of an original S. Hawken rifle in the Museum of the Fur Trade collection.

IMG 2269 crop" border="0

The original is described in detail in Baird's second book on pages 91 and 92.  The barrel length is given as 29-9/16".  The two upper ramrod pipes and spacing convinced Baird that this was the original barrel length for this rifle, meaning it hadn't been shortened.  Another interesting aspect of this rifle is that the forearm is longer than normal, making the barrel look even shorter in proportion.

The barrel on the GRRW Hawken for comparison is 34 inches.
Phil Meek

Offline iloco

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1029
  • Old Timer, Chilhowie, Va.
Re: Hawken rifles with shorter barrels
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2018, 04:50:15 PM »
My Roger Sells Kit Carson 50 caliber Hawken with 31 inch barrel.

iloco

Offline L Meadows

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 177
Re: Hawken rifles with shorter barrels
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2018, 07:02:55 PM »
The pic I'm looking for was an original rifle that had been cut and had only one ramrod pipe.

Offline snrub47

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 117
Re: Hawken rifles with shorter barrels
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2018, 08:10:16 PM »
Finished yesterday........33 inch barrel.


Offline Mtn Meek

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 304
    • GRRW Collector
Re: Hawken rifles with shorter barrels
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2018, 01:40:50 AM »
The pic I'm looking for was an original rifle that had been cut and had only one ramrod pipe.

Larry,

I don't recall the specific rifle you have in mind.  Jim Gordon has pictured in his book three different Hawken rifles that only have one upper pipe.  He gives the barrel length of one of them as 30", but doesn't say how long the barrels are on the other two.

If you have a copy of Great Gunmakers For The Early West, look at Vol. III, pages 379, 381, and 384.
Phil Meek

Offline smylee grouch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7910
Re: Hawken rifles with shorter barrels
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2018, 03:16:07 AM »
I think John Baird has one in one of his books that was cut short at 28 inches in one of his books. It was an early J&S Hawken IIRC.

Offline Mtn Meek

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 304
    • GRRW Collector
Re: Hawken rifles with shorter barrels
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2018, 03:57:28 AM »
Would that be the Robert May J&S Hawken rifle?  Baird said it had a 28" barrel.

full length image" border="0

It sold at auction in 2010.
Phil Meek

Offline smylee grouch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7910
Re: Hawken rifles with shorter barrels
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2018, 04:04:59 AM »
Yes, I think that is the one I was thinking of. I think it was a longer barrel and cut back later in life for what ever reason.

Offline Marcruger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3702
Re: Hawken rifles with shorter barrels
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2018, 04:41:43 AM »
That May rifle looks a touch "stumpy" to my eye.  It may handle nicely though.   God Bless,   Marc

Offline flinchrocket

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1750
Re: Hawken rifles with shorter barrels
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2018, 04:48:32 AM »
The John Johnston Hawken in the Cody Firearms Museum has a 31.25 in. barrel.

Offline L Meadows

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 177
Re: Hawken rifles with shorter barrels
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2018, 05:05:55 AM »
Mtn Meek you are the man,that's the one I was looking for,many thanks. I would be happy to see more pics if anyone has them.

Offline Mtn Meek

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 304
    • GRRW Collector
Re: Hawken rifles with shorter barrels
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2018, 08:41:23 PM »
The auction in 2010 only included three pictures of the Robert May Hawken.  The one above and close-ups of the barrel stamp and patch box.

barrel stamp" border="0

patch box" border="0

John Baird included a few photos of the rifle in his first book.  Page 37, Plates #54 and #55 are details of the patch box and lock.  Page 89, Plate #130 shows Robert May holding the rifle.

The book The Hawken Rifle: Its Place In History by Charles E. Hanson, Jr. has line drawings of the engraving on the patch box, lock, breech tang, and trigger guard on page 43.

These are all the published pictures of the rifle that I know of.

Baird doesn't mention it and may not have known it, but Robert May restocked this rifle while he owned it.  This was noted in the description for the 2010 auction.  All the metal parts are original, but the stock is not.

There are two other J&S Hawken rifles that are very similar to this one.  One is pictured in Jim Gordon's book, page 367, and the other was recently donated to the Autry Museum in Los Angeles by the Gamble family.

Gamble Family Heirloom


Quote
This Gamble family heirloom is on display at the “Western Frontiers” exhibit. Signed on the top of the barrel, “J. & S. Hawken St. Louis,” and bearing an engraved hammer and lockplate stamped “WOLFE & BISHOP WARRANTED,” this .58 caliber Hawken caplock plains rifle is unusual due to its engraved iron patchbox with a buffalo motif (see inset).

The most obvious similarity among the three is the patch box.  The lids are the same.  The finials are similar with the one in the Autry Museum the most elaborate.  All three have a buffalo engraved on the patch box lid.

The snail on the breech of the three rifles are similar with the Robert May snail more elaborate.  Both the Robert May Hawken and the Gamble Hawken have “WOLFE & BISHOP WARRANTED” stamped on the lock plate.   The trigger guard, butt plate, and nose cap follow common J&S patterns.  The Robert May Hawken and the one pictured in Gordon's book have the same engraving pattern and style on the tang and trigger guard.  Not sure about the one in the Autry.

It's unusual that three fancy J&S Hawken rifles that are so similar have survived.  Survival rates of J&S Hawken rifles are low.  One wonders just how many of these fancy rifles in this particular pattern that they actually made.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2020, 04:59:17 AM by Mtn Meek »
Phil Meek

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19540
Re: Hawken rifles with shorter barrels
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2018, 10:50:32 PM »
Thanks for sharing those photos.  Is the buttplate cast or 2 piece brazed?
Andover, Vermont

Offline Marcruger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3702
Re: Hawken rifles with shorter barrels
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2018, 04:42:54 AM »
Like Civil War officers' uniforms versus enlisted uniforms, perhaps the reason three similar fancy Hawkens survived is BECAUSE they are fancy?  Less likely to be abused and used up.  Just a thought.  God Bless,   Marc

Offline Shovelbuck

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 424
Re: Hawken rifles with shorter barrels
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2018, 05:32:53 AM »
Quote
[/quoJohn Baird included a few photos of the rifle in his first book.  Page 37, Plates #54 and #55 are details of the patch box and lock.  Page 89, Plate #130 shows Robert May holding the rifle.
te]

Mtn Meek, could you possibly post the pic Of Robert May holding the rifle?
I don't hunt the hard way, I hunt a simpler way.