NC rifle?

[RAT]

This rifle was displayed at our gunmakers fair several years ago. The owner tagged it as a North Carolina rifle. He based this on a rifle that appeared in Johnston's book "Accouterments" Pg. 37. I'm assuming this was volume 1. He states the patchboxes were similar. He said there is a signature on the barrel that's difficult to read. The best he can tell it's "s anlgf". I'd like to know if anyone can identify a possible maker and place of manufacture.

[Avlrc]

On page 130 & 131 of "Gunsmiths and Allied Tradesmen of Alabama" by Kilgo & Whisker, there is a rifle with very similar patchbox.  The patchbox release in push button on top tang of butt-plate.

[RAT]

Here's a rubbing of the signature.



I was told the patchbox release is hidden in the top patchbox side plate near the buttplate.

[Avlrc]

I would guess you have misinterpreted a couple of  the letters.  What you have so far does not make any sense to me. I looked through Sellers gunsmiths book and do not find anything that would match.  On two  different occasions I let guns get out of my hands because I misinterpreted  the signature.  They were later determined they was signed by makers who I had searched for. The last name is very strange if correct. I think you are thinkin the first name starts with the letter S?  The only name that I found that was even close was Sinacius Anger.  Take a bunch of high resolution pics of the sig in different lighting especially outside on a overcast day.

[Elnathan]

From here it looks like that "A" could be an "H", and the "L" and the "F" could be a number of things. There is also space for there to have been a letter "I" between the A/H and the N.

[RAT]

Not my gun... the owner is guessing about the signature.

I took pictures several years ago when the gun was on display. I wasn't even aware it had a signature... I didn't see any.

The owner sent me another photo of the signature...




Jerry Noble lists several makers with the name Angle, but nothing containing the order of letters "anlg". The "s" may, or may not , be a first name.

Any more comments about the patchbox? What about the trigger guard?

[Sequatchie Rifle]

Anyone figure this one out? I’ve been thinking about it for a few days and wondering!

[Seth Isaacson]

I see "S" at the beginning and then "ANIG." It doesn't look like an "L" after the "N" at all to me in the picture of the rubbing.

[RAT]

I acquired a copy of Johnson's book "Accoutrements". On pages 37 & 38 are photos of a rifle with a similar patchbox. The rifle is inlaid with bone. Johnson attributed it to North Carolina. It looked familiar, so I went back to Jerry Nobel's books. On pages 116 & 117 of volume 3 was the same bone inlaid rifle. Noble attributed it to Guilford Co. North Carolina. I looked through Bill Ivey's book, but didn't see anything similar. It looks like it may be associated with the Guilford County/Jamestown school.

I was unable to get a copy of "Gunsmiths and Allied Tradesmen of Alabama" via ILL from my library. I was told 3 libraries have it... none were willing to loan it.

[mbriggs]

Bob,
I am not sure where they got their information, but I can promise you that nothing that looks like the rifle you posted was made in Jamestown or the Early Deep River School in Guilford County.  I do not know where it is from, but I do know where it isn't from.  [smile]  To be clear, I do not fault the rifle.  Please do not take these comments to be mean spirited, they were not meant to be.   

Michael

[Marcruger]

I agree.  I don't see any features that would lean it towards being an NC gun.  Not a bad looking gun, just doesn't look NC to me (and I live here in NC, for what that's worth).  It seems to be a trend these days to say a gun is a "North Carolina" gun when its heritage is in question.  I don't know why, I guess maybe a fad based on Michael and Bill's books?  Someone could just as easily say "Virginia" or "South Carolina", but I don't see that as much.  Just pondering, and rambling.  God Bless,   Marc

[Tanselman]

The patchbox was also used on New York guns, although I don't seen other distinctive NY details. But it might be worth comparing the remaining barrel letters with names in the New York set of books. Shelby Gallien

[JTR]

I have a rifle with a very similar patchbox. I posted pictures of it several years ago, and at the time it was guessed as maybe a New York gun.
John

[RAT]

I was suspecting the patchbox and trigger guard may be Pennsylvania produced export parts.

Funny thing... I was going through the stack of Muzzle Blasts that have been sitting on my desk for the last year. In the November 2017 issue there was a James Whisker article about gunsmith Patrick Hoy. Illustrated with the article were several views of the bone inlaid "folk art" rifle pictured in both Johnson's "Accouterments" vol 1 (pgs 37 & 38) and Noble's "Notes on Southern Long Rifles" vol 3 (pgs 116 & 117). The article states that Patrick Hoy was born in Ireland in 1787... and arrived in South Carolina in 1804. He settled around Spartanburg SC. He was a gunsmith from 1815-1860. He died in 1860.

One reason Johnson and Noble may have attributed the bone inlaid rifle to North Carolina was the molding line at the top of the comb that terminates in a raised beaver tail at the nose of the comb.

The patchbox similarity between the bone inlaid rifle and the rifle pictured in my original post may be coincidental (if the patchbox was produced in PA and sold as parts). In both cases the patchbox release in in the patchbox side panel. On the brass mounted rifle it's hidden under the upper side panel. On the bone inlaid rifle it's a button located on the lower panel.

[shortbarrel]

I think you can forget the chicken scratching in the gun. Probably done by the the owner or someone else. Would a smith capable enough to build this guns sign I with this crude signature.