Hawken with Crooked Buttplate

[Hawken2012]

As my name suggests, I am a huge Hawken fan and have been for the past 20 years.  I have owned many and even tried my hand at building a few over the years. 

I recently acquired a set of Jim Gordon's books, Great Gunmakers for the Early West, and have been looking at pictures of original Hawken rifles.  I have also enjoyed the Online Collection of the Cody Firearms' Museum. 

  https://collections.centerofthewest.org/view/firearm_rifle_samuel_hawken_st_louis_mo_samuel_hawken_half_stock_percuss?q=hawken&partial=0&bbm=1&wg=1&cfm=1&pim=1&dmnh=1&ondisplay=0&offset=12&maxOffset=13&current_id=E29C363A-7225-4E12-8A08-713487FDA572&neighbor%5Bprev%5D=9&neighbor%5Bmiddle%5D=10&neighbor%5Bnext%5D=11

In the above link is a picture of a brass mounted Hawken (also shown in Jim's book).  I realize it is not the typical iron mounted plain's rifle, and I don't wish to start a debate on that.  However, what struck me is when you click on the "top photo" and zoom in, the buttplate is clearly crooked on the rifle. 

Here's my question: 

Was this done intentionally when the rifle was made for some unknown reason???   

or

Is this the result of 170 years of age and wood warping/shrinking???

or

Was it simply a MISTAKE when the rifle was made brand-new??? 

In looking over the pictures online and in Jim's book of original Hawkens, I have noticed many things that I would consider "mistakes."  For example, crooked buttplates, crooked toe plates, off-centered tangs/trigger bars/toe-plates, and escutcheons that are slightly mismatched or off-set in the stock, even in the later-made S. Hawken rifles. 

Nathan S. had a great thread going awhile back about Gunstocker's Mentality, which definitely provided for a good discussion. 

If I spent $2,000-$3,000 on a custom made Hawken today and the buttplate was clearly that crooked, I would not be happy.  With our modern mindset we expect everything to be perfect.  The Hawken rifle has always been a favorite of mine and I often read about the high quality of these original rifles.  However, when looking at pictures of originals, I see many imperfections that by today's standards I would almost consider "mistakes."  Was this pretty typical of guns made back then??? 

Thoughts on the crooked buttplate in the link above or on these other observations... 

[iloco]

I think it is the angle of the camera that is making the butt plate show it being crooked.  It is not looking straight down on the butt plate.  I could be wrong.

[mountainman70]

Hi friend, where are you seeing crooked? My computer doesn't show it. A lot of times digital pics don't reoroduce well ,and they have a tendency to distort, make buttstocks look like an old Markwell arms kit,when in reality it is just an optical dillusion for lack of a better word.

I like them Hawken guns,too,as you probably know. I wouldn't want one with a crooked anything on em. I was taught to lay out a centerline all around stock,whether it be a plank or a precarve, and work from the centerline.
I hope this makes some sense,that seems to be in short supply here at my lodge. Maybe another beer would help----------------Dave

[Hawken2012]

Maybe I am looking at it wrong, or it could be the camera angle.





I took a screenshot of the image and drew red lines on it to show the crooked angle I am talking about. 

Once again, I could be looking at it wrong.  I apologize if I am. 

[iloco]

Here is what I think he is refering to.

[Hawken2012]

Yes, iloco, that is the crooked part I was referring. 

[iloco]

I would like to hold that rifle in my hands and look at it.  Angles and light don't help in that picture.

[Clear Spring Armory]

My two cents. I built a SMR for a guy once that came out exactly like that. I couldn't believe it once I got the buttstock refined. I had laid out a center line, drew a cast off line, drew a line square to the cast off line where the buttplate return would terminate and did the bandsawing. I put a mark for center on the end of the buttplate return and the toe and matched those to center lines on the the stock. Should have been perfect, but in the end it seemed the buttplate casting wasn't very true. I assumed the return was square and never checked it against the cast off line down its entire length. By the time it was noticeable it was too late to fix and I surely wasn't tossing the stock.

Point is, maybe it was going to cost too much to start over, and in hand, its barely noticeable. Maybe he sold it slightly cheaper, we may never know. Fun to speculate though.

[jerrywh]

 I don't know how many times I have said the old masters weren't so masterfull at times.

[Greg Pennell]

Mountainman70, talk about a blast from the past...I nearly choked on my beer when you mentioned a Markwell Arms kit!  One of those “Kentucky” kits, purchased with funds made by cutting mine timbers while still in high school, started me down the muzzleloader path.  I got mine from Gibson’s Discount in Pikeville, Kentucky...before the flood of ‘77 put ‘em out of business.

I couldn’t stand how it looked after I got it finished...wound up ordering a half-stock precarve from Dixie and turning it into a “sort of” Ohio style...

Greg

PS...to sort of stay on topic, that butt plate looks crooked to me, too.

[Daryl]

Yes, iloco, that is the crooked part I was referring.

Appears crooked to me too, plainly, but I only have a 22" screen - although it is a good one & so is my video card.

As Jerry notes - so true.  Mistakes happen.

[mountainman70]

Hey G Pennell, hope ya didn't waste any beer !! Once I got a bit better along in this hobby, I sawed off the buttstock and other wood and made my version of a Blanket gun.As it had many gaps in the wood/metal fit, I called it The gap gun !!!You can assign any manner of  meaning you wish !!! Dave

as to the subject at hand, yep, with better close up, it does look crooked 

[Goo]

OMG it’s crooked I think I felt the earth stop rotating!

[taco650]

Maybe I am looking at it wrong, or it could be the camera angle.





I took a screenshot of the image and drew red lines on it to show the crooked angle I am talking about. 

Once again, I could be looking at it wrong.  I apologize if I am. 

Could be a warp in the wood that occurred slowly over time or made that way to fit the body of the customer or just a "mistake" in building.  I'd just consider it the "character" of that rifle.

[Herb]

It is crooked.  When you build, you have to work to keep the tang parallel to the centerline, the butt plate square with the stock.  It is a builder's mistake.  Enlarge the fourth picture at the bottom, the spur on the trigger guard is also not square with the guard.  Slide over to the toe plate to see that it is a repair.  The rifle got dropped onto its toe and the toe of the stock broke off and was repaired.  You can see the side view in the first picture.  They are easy to break off.  I was hunting elk in the high Uintahs in November 2011 with my fullstock flint .58 Hawken  (Taylor- this is "Jake").  I fell on some icy rocks and  turned the rifle to land on its butt to break my fall.  Broke the toe right off.  Now when I build a Hawken I put a 2" long screw into the butt under the toe plate and use 3/4" and 1 1/2" screws to hold the toe plate on, the short screw at the rear.





upload photo to internet

[P.W.Berkuta]

Yes, iloco, that is the crooked part I was referring.

Appears crooked to me too, plainly, but I only have a 22" screen - although it is a good one & so is my video card.

As Jerry notes - so true.  Mistakes happen.

Looks crooked to me also - the butt plate is not square to the stock and is at a slight angle which makes the butt plate angle off the center line. The maker could have been in a hurry to complete the job for the customer .

[PPatch]

I agree with Herb, it is a period repair, and probably the best the guy could do and I can imagine his telling the owner just that. No doubt that after the repair the gun functioned just as it should, and that repair is simply part of its history.

dave

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I don't think it left the shop like that.  As Herb so astutely noted, the rifle has suffered a hard whack on the butt plate.  Note that there is butt plate metal proud of the wood on the left side, and wood proud of the metal on the right.  The end of the return is also crooked on its inlet, indicating it is twisted out of its original seat.
I hope I'm that good looking when I'm 180 years old.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Herb:  I remember when you first posted that picture of the broken toe.  That rifle now belongs to Hatchet Jack, as you must know, and he loves it dearly.  It was a hard sell as the LOP is only 13 1/2" (IIRC) and he prefers 14" .  But in the end, he was convinced that he could should it well, and he does.

[PPatch]

I hope I'm that good looking when I'm 180 years old.

Oh you will be Taylor - just like me.   

[Joe S.]

My rifles a little bent up but that injuns head is a wee bit bent up more......insert your favorite mountainmans name here

[Herb]

Taylor, I had a nice letter from Ross ("Hatchet Jack") last month.  He has now shot "Jake" over 7,000 times, says  "Thanks again for one of the finest rifles I've ever owned".  Yours likely was first but got burned up in his trailer fire.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Yes, he lost quite a few that I had made for him, including that .62 Don Stith full stocked Hawken.  That's why he wanted yours, and a good choice it is.  Ross documents every shot he fires from his guns...never met anyone like him.

[Stophel]

" Was this pretty typical of guns made back then???  " 

In a word, yes.

You have to realize that 90% of people would NEVER notice it.  Probably not even if you pointed it out to them.  Also realize that it was a gun.  A shooting machine, not really intended as a piece of art or anything else.  A shooting machine made mostly by hand, with little in the way of precision machinery.  And they were putting these things together and getting them out the door as fast as they could.  A crooked buttplate was an acceptable mistake... especially since few would balk at it anyway.

"We" here, I would expect, are far, Far, FAR more aware of such things than the average schmo, then or now.  The crooked buttplate would drive me mad, but everybody else? Eh, who cares?  I never cease to be amazed at how oblivious most people are to such things. And they are amazed that I see anything off at all.

The average modern made gun, even with all the high technology available, isn't that perfect either.  But most people won't notice, or won't care.