Author Topic: Couple Flintlock Issues - Siler Lock (Read 4334 times)

Ray-Vigo · « **on:** March 21, 2018, 04:48:39 AM »

Having trouble with a Siler lock on a pistol project - not getting much in the way of sparks and breaking flints. Also having the frizzin bounce back rather than staying open. The frizzin surface turns away a file so it seems pretty hard. Flints do not make deep gouges in the frizzin (actually seems to be very minimal wear even after using it a bit).

Any thoughts on these issues? Is the frizzin too hard? What about a fix for having the frizzin bounce rather than stay put in the open position after firing?

Nate McKenzie · « **Reply #1 on:** March 21, 2018, 05:01:01 AM »

Who built the lock. No problem if its a Chambers. Send it back and he'll fix it.

rich pierce · « **Reply #2 on:** March 21, 2018, 05:07:02 AM »

So, a small Siler? Made by Chambers or someone else? If so, call them.

If not, tell us how the flints are positioned. At half cock, how close is the flint to the frizzen? Is it pointing at the top, 3/4 up, 2/3 up, or what height on the frizzen?

You are sure it is rebounding because.....?

Is the mainspring strong?

Dave B · « **Reply #3 on:** March 21, 2018, 05:08:40 AM »

You cant go wrong with talking with Barbie about your problem. They are very helpful. Here is a post from the archives that talks about what you have going on. http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=44684.msg437697#msg437697 there is some good information here.

Ray-Vigo · « **Reply #4 on:** March 21, 2018, 06:15:26 AM »

Not sure who built the lock - it was a second-hand gun. The main spring seems on a par with my other locks. I thought at first the frizzen might not be opening all the way, so put a piece of paper under where the foot would fall to see if it was bouncing. The paper had a mark the shape of the foot after firing, so it seems the frizzen is opening up, then bouncing back to the semi-closed position. It does not happen on all shots, but is maybe 50-50.

Old Salt · « **Reply #5 on:** March 21, 2018, 07:33:15 AM »

Try turning the flint over. Some guns like the bevel up and some like it down. While I am not a builder I have been shooting for more than 20 years.

Old Salt

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #6 on:** March 21, 2018, 06:18:37 PM »

You might have a couple of things going on here. If the sparks from the lock are small and bright white, the frizzen is likely too hard. If the frizzen shows little or no wear, and in fact almost looks polished, the frizzen is too hard. The cure is wait until the wife goes shopping, and put the frizzen in the oven at about 400 degrees for an hour. Then let it cool naturally.
Modern flintlocks, that are patterned after early locks without a roller, often don’t allow the frizzen to cam over far enough to avoid bounce back. The rolller on a roller frizzen almost locks up the frizzen in the open position. This is not true of the earlier nonroller frizzens. In fact if you look at a bunch of early rifles, and muskets, that have early locks, you will see that the frizzen at rest lays way more forward than most modern locks. This prevents most bounce back. Recontureing the foot of the frizzen will allow the frizzen to lay more forward at rest, and solve most bounce back issues.

Hungry Horse

hanshi · « **Reply #7 on:** March 21, 2018, 08:08:42 PM »

I pretty much agree with Old Salt and Hungry Horse. But I'm certainly nowhere that knowledgeable about locks. The only problem I've ever had with a small Siler was on my pistol. It was a sometimes reliable lock and a constant source of frustration. Eventually a light came on in my dim brain; the lock had a fly that was too low (single trigger) and it interfered with ignition. The fly was removed and the lock works like a champ, now.

Long John · « **Reply #8 on:** March 29, 2018, 10:38:08 PM »

Ray,

Let's address the problems separately, starting with the frizzen rebound. While I love the Chambers product there is one issue that I always have to correct on their locks and that is the length and size of the arresting cam on the frizzen. On a French lock the arresting cam is shaped so that the pan cover goes full vertical. That means ALL the weight of the frizzen is in front of the pivot screw and the frizzen NEVER bounces back. For reasons I have never been able to fathom the Chambers locks are made so that the pan cover barely reaches 45 degrees before the arresting cam hits the frizzen spring. Very little rebound on the frizzen spring sends the frizzen back down where it smacks the flint. On a Chambers lock I always file the arresting cam down enough to let the pan cover achieve a vertical position. This also minimizes the scorching of the finish on the stock adjacent to the barrel and just in front of the lock. Others might suggest annealing the frizzen spring and putting more curve in the top leaf, etc, etc. all of which can work, but every time I have had a flint buster like you describe relieving the arresting cam on the frizzen fixed the problem.

Try this first and let us know how it worked.

Best Regards,
JMC
John Cholin

bob in the woods · « **Reply #9 on:** March 29, 2018, 11:14:56 PM »

Ditto what Long John said.

rich pierce · « **Reply #10 on:** March 29, 2018, 11:25:17 PM »

By “arresting cam” do you mean the tail (often curly)?

Marcruger · « **Reply #11 on:** March 30, 2018, 03:42:06 AM »

While not as elegant as balancing spring weights and cam surfaces, I have a solution (I did not invent it), that works like a charm and costs virtually nothing:

Make your leather or lead flint wrap longer on the top surface, all the way to the sharp end of the flint.

VOILA! Problem solved.

The rebounding frizzen tries to come back and knap the flint edge, but gets leather padding instead.

My late Ketland took out a flint every 5-6 shots, until I tried the extended leather. Now the flints go so long it is embarrassing.

I hope this helps someone. God Bless and best wishes, Marc

Stoner creek · « **Reply #12 on:** March 30, 2018, 04:53:01 AM »

Quote from: Marcruger on March 30, 2018, 03:42:06 AM

While not as elegant as balancing spring weights and cam surfaces, I have a solution (I did not invent it), that works like a charm and costs virtually nothing:

Make your leather or lead flint wrap longer on the top surface, all the way to the sharp end of the flint.

VOILA! Problem solved.

The rebounding frizzen tries to come back and knap the flint edge, but gets leather padding instead.

My late Ketland took out a flint every 5-6 shots, until I tried the extended leather. Now the flints go so long it is embarrassing.

I hope this helps someone. God Bless and best wishes, Marc

Great tip! I’ve been doing this for 40 years and this never occurred to me!!
Thanks Marc!!!

Long John · « **Reply #13 on:** March 30, 2018, 05:51:50 PM »

Quote from: rich pierce on March 29, 2018, 11:25:17 PM

By “arresting cam” do you mean the tail (often curly)?

Yes. I mean the curled extension of the pan cover that extends towards the muzzle when the gun is ready to fire and hits the frizzen spring, arresting further forward motion, when fired.

Usually there is enough metal to allow the maker to file it back so that the frizzen travels further before the motion is arrested. On one gun I just hated the whole frizzen up to bright red and bent the cam up a little. But on that lock I was already going to do my own heat treating of the frizzen.

Best regards,

JMC
John Cholin

Dphariss · « **Reply #14 on:** March 30, 2018, 07:00:18 PM »

Quote from: Ray-Vigo on March 21, 2018, 04:48:39 AM

Having trouble with a Siler lock on a pistol project - not getting much in the way of sparks and breaking flints. Also having the frizzin bounce back rather than staying open. The frizzin surface turns away a file so it seems pretty hard. Flints do not make deep gouges in the frizzin (actually seems to be very minimal wear even after using it a bit).

Any thoughts on these issues? Is the frizzin too hard? What about a fix for having the frizzin bounce rather than stay put in the open position after firing?

Without seeing it I would recommend a stiffer frizzen spring. This can be done without a quenching and tempering. Polish spring bright and oil free. Clamp it so it cannot move, I use brass jaws in a vice and would clamp the lower "leg" from the screw hole to near the pin. Its nice to have a vice that can be tilted 90 degrees. Using a plier or vice grip to flex the spring and a propane torch for heat grip the end of the spring and flex it about 1/16" wider than it is now. While holding this heat along the "upper leg" with a moving flame from the torch along the length of the "leg". As the spring heats to blue or slightly past this color the spring will relax and the pressure needed to hold it will be significantly reduced. STOP heating at this time and hold for a few more seconds then release. Let the spring cool and install. This should increase the force needed to move the frizzen and should reduce or eliminate the rebound problem. I would also preheat the oven to 375 (using TWO oven thermometers not the ranges setting to confirm the temp) then put the (oil free) frizzen in the oven for an hour then let it cool. This should help the spark as well by letting flint bite a little easier.
If you do not keep the flame moving and/or overheat the spring you will probably have to re heat treat the part.
I use a long leather to protect the flint on some locks.

Dan

Ray-Vigo · « **Reply #15 on:** April 06, 2018, 08:41:21 PM »

Sorry for the slow reply - was away for Easter. I re-shaped the frizzen tail a bit so it sits more open. I also got a longer piece of leather to protect the flint from any bounce back. This already has helped things. I do believe the "weak spring" explanation is probably the correct one, or at least the most correct (sometimes this sort of thing is a combination of items). I'll open up the spring just a bit as well in the next couple of days. Hopefully between those three solutions, this thing will be licked. I'll temper the frizzen in the oven only as a last resort. My sense is that the frizzen face may be just a bit hard, but that the other issues are the bigger things.

Frank · « **Reply #16 on:** April 06, 2018, 08:45:28 PM »

Send the lock to Jim Chambers and he will fix it for a nominal fee. There is nothing worse or more frustrating than an unreliable flintlock.
Just not worth the aggravation.

Marcruger · « **Reply #17 on:** April 07, 2018, 02:39:09 PM »

"There is nothing worse or more frustrating than an unreliable flintlock.
Just not worth the aggravation."

Right you are sir! You don't know how many times I have said that to people. Very akin to a modern gun that jams.

I never ceased to be amazed by folks who will build a gun around a cheap lock, or barrel for that matter. I see guns posted for sale with something like "I built this around an unknown recycled barrel and lock taken off of an Italian import from the '60s......" Is that one going to be a wallhanger only? It seems like for the work involved in building a gun, you'd want the best components. I would if I were putting my name on one.

My apologies. I got off track.

God Bless, Marc

Frank · « **Reply #18 on:** April 07, 2018, 04:51:16 PM »

I had a large Siler that I had bought about 20 years ago that had a very weak spark. That gun was frustrating so I quit shooting it, and it sat in a corner for years. Finally decided to send the lock to Jim Chambers to have the frizzen re-hardened. Got it back in about two weeks. That lock will now set your socks on fire.

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Author Topic: Couple Flintlock Issues - Siler Lock (Read 4334 times)

Ray-Vigo

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Ray-Vigo