Author Topic: US Rifleman's horn  (Read 3379 times)

Offline David Rase

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US Rifleman's horn
« on: May 18, 2018, 05:36:38 PM »
I am seeing the light at the end of the tunnel with my 1803 Harpers Ferry project and would like to complete it with the US Rifleman's pouch and horn.  I have the plans from TRS for the pouch but found a completed pouch from October Country which looks pretty authentic. 

The print states that later rifles, 1814's used a flask with the bag but earlier bags came with a horn.  My question is, what type and size of powder horn do you think would of came with the pouch.  I am thinking something small, plan and utilitarian but thought I would seek the wisdom of the forum for further input.
Thanks, David

Offline Longknife

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Re: US Rifleman's horn
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2018, 10:09:55 PM »
David are you wanting to replicate what Lewis and Clark would have taken on the expedition at what might have been issued to standard  Military Rifle Companies ? Lewis had "15 powder horns and pouches, complete" made by Robert C. Martin. 162 High, Philadelphia. There are no descriptions of these horns and pouches  that I know of.  It is assumed that Lewis would have had them "custom" made in a military fashion. The earliest known documentation for military rifle pouches was described in "The Handbook for Rifleman" written by Lieutenant Colonel William Duane in 1812. The Rifle shop has a pattern for this pouch that can be used to make a suitable military styled L&C pouch. The main difference that I have observed in the reproductions of this pouch is that no white buff leather is used in the L&C pouch, maybe white buff leather was not readily available to Mr. Martin at the time. At Camp River Dubois they have the Village restorations pouches ( with no buff leather). As far as the powder horns the military fashion was to use brass valves and a funneled butt with screw out plug for filling. Would Mr. Martin make them this way? In the Handbook for rifleman I believe the bags were equipped to carry 60 balls (cant find my copy to check) so make a horn capable shooting 60 rounds, with prime, .....Ed
« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 10:31:37 PM by Longknife »
Ed Hamberg

Offline Longknife

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Re: US Rifleman's horn
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2018, 10:43:12 PM »
Dave I found this from Daunes' book on line:

"...Uniformity is essential so is simplicity there should be nothing glaring or bright about the rifleman or his equipments Warmth durability and sufficiency so that the body may be neither exposed to unnecessary inclemency of weather nor constrained in the free exercise of limbs and muscles but at ease in all its motions
 His arms shoulders elbows ribs his knees the calves of his legs and feet should be entirely free from pressure or restraint for this reason breeches should not be permitted to riflemen nor to any other soldier neither should they wear low quartered shoes or buckles on the instep they should wear either the hunting or
 Jefferson shoe....The coat should be short and well fitted, the skirt reaching to the line of the fork , the color dark green, pantaloons the same ; buttons yellow; waistcoat of the same color, or at least not white on service ; collar black. The head coveting a black cap of leather with a vizor in front, and an oil cloth of 24 inches square, folded within the crown, to be let down on an emergency of rainy weather to cover the neck behind ; a green or black plume—the cord of the cap and the regimental letters plum and not shewy.
The knapsack square, with a square case for a blanket forming the cover, and the cap of the knapsack to contain necessaries.

 A cartridge box of flexible leather containing two rows of tin unsoldered cases, to contain 30 to 36 rounds ball cartridge ; a double pouch slung over his right shoulder and under His left arm, one partition containing 60 loose well smoothed balls, and in the other partition his turn screw, knife, scouring brush, oil rag,
 patches. Over his left shoulder and under his right arm hang his powder horn with the best powder.
 Three white shirts, two flannel shirts with sleeves reaching four inches below the elbows, and opening like a coat at the front, closed by two pair of tape strings at the breast and about the waist; two pair flannel drawers reaching to the calf of the leg ; two pair of socks for winter only—none to be worn from June to October. The feet to be washed in cold water every morning as a rule of  discipline; would preserve health, assure vigor, and render stockings and socks totally unnecessary.
 The hair cut close to the head once a month.
 The pantaloons for winter, woollen cloth ; for summer grey unbleached linen or cluck ; and for an undress an unbleached hunting shirt with green fringe ; the pantaloons by boiling with vegetable substances may be made a dark green; or with bark a dark brown; but the discipline should rigidly guard against dirt with such colors...."pp. 98-99

"""Quote"""His arms should be the rifle, with a short sword of 30 inches, worn close to the left side, perpendicular to the body, and susceptible of being used as a bayonet, he might have a small axe and a knife in his powder belt.""""

Note,,, "knife in his POWDER BELT"..... Is this a belt that his cartridge box is attatched to?


""""QUOTE""" A cartridge box of flexible leather containing two rows of tin unsoldered cases, to contain 30 to 36 rounds ball cartridge ; a double pouch slung over his right shoulder and under His left arm, one partition containing 60 loose well smoothed balls, and in the other partition his turn screw, knife, scouring brush, oil rag,
patches. Over his left shoulder and under his right arm hang his powder horn with the best powder."""""

This would tell  me that the rifleman had a cartridge box with 30 to 36 premeasured loads secure by a belt. (Bellybox?) AND a pouch with 60 extra balls and maintenance equipment, under his left arm AND his powder horn slung under his right arm...? ...I ...think,,,, Ed
« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 11:07:52 PM by Longknife »
Ed Hamberg

Offline Longknife

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Re: US Rifleman's horn
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2018, 10:49:52 PM »
Here is a link to the brass Military valve, and a pretty good pic of a horn, Ed

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/81/1/SPOUT-KIT-B
Ed Hamberg

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: US Rifleman's horn
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2018, 11:05:27 PM »
Thanks for sharing all that info Longknife, interesting and informative.

Offline David Rase

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Re: US Rifleman's horn
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2018, 12:24:25 AM »
Ed,
The Rifle Shoppe drawing for the riflemans pouch states that "60 well smoothed balls" were carried in the inner pocket and the outer pocket carried the turnscrew, worm, oil rag, small knife and patches.  With that said, your earlier statement of making a horn that carried enough powder for 60 rounds is spot on.  Thank you for the inspiration.
David

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: US Rifleman's horn
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2018, 12:48:13 AM »
60 rounds:  that's a full pound of powder.  And that is a large horn.  I have two that qualify.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Longknife

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Re: US Rifleman's horn
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2018, 02:34:39 AM »
A pound of powder is 7,000 grains, so if you use a 70 grain charge (includes priming charge) that is 4,200 grains, or .6 of a pound of powder...Ed
Ed Hamberg

Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: US Rifleman's horn
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2018, 03:35:34 PM »
 David, I have just THE horn for you, 40" around the outside curve and 7 at the base, great twist too. Should be just the ticket for a L o n g hunt with the new rig :D

  Tim




« Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 03:36:39 PM by Tim Crosby »

Offline Marcruger

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Re: US Rifleman's horn
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2018, 10:11:23 PM »
GOOD GOOGLY GRACIOUS Mr. Crosby.  That is some horn!  Most likely from a miniature poodle-ox.  ;-) 

I have the perfect use for it.  Make it up like one of your normal horns, but use it as a sign on your display at shows.  Like the Colonial signs of old.  A fold-up stand and you are all set. 

Best wishes,   Marc

Offline davec2

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Re: US Rifleman's horn
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2018, 01:04:09 AM »
Tim,

Where did you get a horn that size ?  I have been looking for one (ok....maybe not quite that big)... to make up as a powder storage horn.  Haven't been able to find one.
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780

Offline David Rase

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Re: US Rifleman's horn
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2018, 07:43:28 AM »
Tim,

Where did you get a horn that size ?  I have been looking for one (ok....maybe not quite that big)... to make up as a powder storage horn.  Haven't been able to find one.
Dave,
What you want is a Watusi bull horn.  I bought a pair off of Ebay from a vendor called rmckbones.  I have purchased sever items from him over the years and have been very pleased.
David

Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: US Rifleman's horn
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2018, 03:51:38 PM »
 Dave, David is right it is a Watusi horn, I picked it up at the CLA show a couple years ago thinking as Marc mentioned above that it would made a neat sign once finished as a Powder Horn but it is just to big to haul around, would be great as a sign to hang outside a shop.
 If you don't find what your looking for send me an about size and I will keep my eye out, I find a lot of horns that I can't use.

   Tim

Offline davec2

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Re: US Rifleman's horn
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2018, 05:35:01 PM »
David & Tim,

Thanks for the information !
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780