Author Topic: Trade Gun Build Questions  (Read 6051 times)

Yung_flint

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Trade Gun Build Questions
« on: June 07, 2018, 10:15:13 AM »
Howdy all,

I'm very interested in gun building, specifically a Trade Gun but have never built a kit before. I have basic woodworking skills, hopefully that will be enough? Any input would be appreciated. The two kits I'm looking at are the Northwest Trade Gun Kit from Pectonica and the Carolina G kit from Clay Smith. Is the Clay Smith kit worth the extra money for a first time builder? Which kit is typically more finished. Also interested in any other kit recommendations you guys may have. Thanks

Offline Frank

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Re: Trade Gun Build Questions
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2018, 01:01:52 PM »
I just finished one of Clay Smith's kits and it was a very easy build. I don't have any direct knowledge of the Pecatonica Kit, but from what I can see from their website it would be considerably more difficult than the Clay Smith kit.

I have been building guns for over 40 years but never built a smoothbore for myself. I wanted something that I could knock out easily so I chose Clay's kit.

For a first time builder, I would definitely recommend Clay Smith's kit. The extra cost will save you a lot of time and help you avoid some costly mistakes.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2018, 02:21:27 PM by Frank »

Offline moleeyes36

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Re: Trade Gun Build Questions
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2018, 03:06:17 PM »
Welcome to the ALR forum.

My experience is just the opposite of Frank.  I've built a few Pecatonica kits in the past for others, but never something by Clay Smith.  In my experience the Pecatonica kits are okay and probably as good as most other precarves.  I don't know about the Trade Gun kit, but in my opinion the other Pecatonica kits aren't as historically accurate as they could be in both stock architecture and furnishings.  From what others say, I suspect the Clay Smith kit is a step or two up the ladder.  Others having direct experience with Clay Smith's kits can help you there.

Mole Eyes
« Last Edit: June 07, 2018, 03:10:53 PM by moleeyes36 »
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Offline Bill Raby

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Re: Trade Gun Build Questions
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2018, 07:20:54 PM »
I have no experience with either kit mentioned. I have built a few kits from Track of the Wolf and a few from blanks. My opinion is that it is easier to build from a blank, but takes a little longer. I tend to think that the pre carves are sort of a gimmick to make you think that the hard part is already done. It is not. You spend a lot less time removing wood, but every last bit of that original surface will be cut away before it is done. You still have to make everything fit together and finish the inletting. When they say that a pre carved stock is 90% inlet, that means that 90% of the inletting is done and you still have 90% left to go. The first 90% is just digging out wood. The last 10% is where you get things moved into final position and fit together. That is 90% of the work.

I think the only advantage to a kit for a first build is that it gives you a good idea of how and where all the pieces fit together and it is starting out in roughly the correct shape. That made a big difference on my first one. I had little experience with traditional muzzleloaders at the time and really did know much about them.

If the goal is gun building, then start with which ever has the least amount of work already done. Buy a few books before you buy any kit.

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Trade Gun Build Questions
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2018, 07:25:35 PM »
Whichever one you choose, a Northwest Trade gun has to be the easiest build there is.  A good choice to begin with.
Dave Kanger

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Yung_flint

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Re: Trade Gun Build Questions
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2018, 07:49:42 PM »
Thanks for the help! I chose the Trade Gun mainly because I love the way they look, with the added bonus of simplicity. Im kinda going for something I can knock out fairly easily as Frank said, but I want to learn a little more then a "In the White" kit has to offer. I also didn't realize what 90% Inletting meant I guess hahaa.

Offline B.Habermehl

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Re: Trade Gun Build Questions
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2018, 10:34:46 PM »
I built the other Clay Smith trade gun kit for a customer. It was a no fuss no bother project. The type G kit would be about as easy, however the side plate should be engraved. As any kit gun I have ever worked on they needed to go on a diet and be slimmed down a good bit. BJH
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Offline tallpine

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Re: Trade Gun Build Questions
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2018, 04:08:10 AM »
I built the  Pectonica trade gun, I ordered the stock with just the barrel inleted and ramrod hole drilled, I did all the other inletting. It was a fairly easy build. Every thing you need to know is right here on ARL

Yung_flint

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Re: Trade Gun Build Questions
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2018, 07:33:34 AM »
I'm also wondering when it comes to how much material to remove from the stock, how would I know how much needs to be removed? Just till it looks correct or is there a certain measurement?

Offline Frank

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Re: Trade Gun Build Questions
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2018, 12:40:45 PM »

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Trade Gun Build Questions
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2018, 05:08:31 PM »
Some original trade guns were quite straight in the stock, but not the Carolina guns as far as I know. Whenever buying a kit or precarve it’s good to know drop at comb and heel.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Waksupi

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Re: Trade Gun Build Questions
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2018, 06:29:36 PM »
I'm also wondering when it comes to how much material to remove from the stock, how would I know how much needs to be removed? Just till it looks correct or is there a certain measurement?

Take off as much as you think you should, then take off some more! A trade gun can be quite graceful in line if you do so.
Ric Carter
Somers, Montana

Yung_flint

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Re: Trade Gun Build Questions
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2018, 02:42:02 AM »
That Carolina Tutorial Is great. Thanks for that! Sounds like I need to get the tools out for some serious wood removal Haha.

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Trade Gun Build Questions
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2018, 03:50:23 AM »
 I doubt if there was ever an original HB trade gun made from maple. In fact I am positive. Go for walnut. Ron scott has a good supply at last check.
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Yung_flint

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Re: Trade Gun Build Questions
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2018, 06:12:56 PM »
Hmm I didn't even think about that. Thanks for the heads up!

Offline stuart cee dub

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Re: Trade Gun Build Questions
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2018, 05:16:39 PM »
 Trade guns are fun to build .My only suggestion is if you are going with a precarve ,
My personal rule is never under any circumstance get the lock mortice pre-inletted .

Mr Kibler's rifle kits seems to be ,from the descriptions ,made to a very high tolerance.
The touchhole location and the flint lock must be just so to go off reliably .Anything less is an exercise in frustration.The margin of error is tiny .

Walnut works much faster than maple.
The fastest build gun and one of the best looking guns I ever built was a NW tradegun in walnut from a blank .I realized that the reason they looked like they did is most of the stock trimming can be done with a straight carpenters saw .
The light bulb went on . It was a valuable insight.     

Yung_flint

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Re: Trade Gun Build Questions
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2018, 08:59:22 PM »
I am planning on going with a precarve but I hadn't even considered not getting it with lock mortice inletted. That's interesting.

You guys have any reccomedations on books for a Trade Gun build or just general gun building? I heard good things about "The Art of Building the Pennsylvania Longrifle" that Track sells. But any others would be neat.

Offline Frank

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Re: Trade Gun Build Questions
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2018, 09:14:49 PM »
"Recreating The American Longrifle" is also a good book.

Offline smallpatch

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Re: Trade Gun Build Questions
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2018, 10:03:24 PM »
If historical accuracy, go with Clays precarve.
In His grip,

Dane

Offline stuart cee dub

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Re: Trade Gun Build Questions
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2018, 03:48:27 AM »
Hi Yung_Flint
The reason I suggested going to a stock without the lock mortice inletted is that the touchhole needs to be centered at the so called sunset position .
On a pre-carve  I like to get the barrel settled in ,sometimes deeper than it comes pre- inlet as frequently the web between the ramrod  hole and the bottom of the barrel is too generous .This is done deliberately by the stock shaper  as it is better to have too thick of a web than to have the ramrod hole poke through into the barrel channel . Less wood stock is wasted that way . Wood wasted is money lost. It's also worth checking to see where the ramrod hole actually ended up .Sometimes you have to fix that first or reject the stock before you even start cutting.

By the time you get the barrel to where it should be the lock mortice lock is often not in the correct position anymore .
The touchhole position in the barrel should be ...
1)centered on the barrel flat
2) just in front of the breech plug face
 
A properly positioned lock should....
1) have the front screw pass through the web of wood  between the barrel and the ramrod hole
2) the rear screw should pass behind or if needed with a relief hole drilled through the breech plug turning lug , or a notch through the same behind the barrel . These two screws snug the flintlock itself to the barrel flat so there is no gap . You don't want any possibility of live powder getting trickled down into the lock mortice and then igniting blowing the lock off .
3) the imaginary line across the top of the pan should bisect the either bottom (hunters seem to prefer this )or the center (for target shooters ) of the touchhole .

The build books do a better job of explaining this with pictures , some of the terminology may not even make sense yet .
 
 Add to that is some breech plugs come overly long messing up the geometry .(means how the parts are placed and how it effects the final shape of the gun ) The lock gets placed too far forward .Sure it might work but it looks a bit off.
 
Or the breech plug as received may not be properly installed ,meaning the face of the plug is not fully flush with the back of the barrel. Most good barrel makers do this correctly .If you order the plug installed but it's up to you to verify this before investing your time .If the threads are exposed hot gas erosion and rust will result and your patches will hang up in the barrel .
That's bad.

Guns that work well are built step upon step .Correct placement means your gun works in the end . Fully inletted stocks would seem to take the guess work out but too many steps are done at once . The placement of the lock is super critical to function .Further the stock shaper  may  have no clue as to what components you are actually using ,it's all kind of a guess anyway.

The only rifle stocks fully insetted (well 90% anyway ) that  I had any luck with was Dunlap woodcrafts Springfield stocks for rifle muskets using original spec parts . But that's slightly off topic and Dunlap did have a good idea of what parts one would be actually using .The wonders of early parts interchangeability and armory genius .

You are recreating something from earlier '' world made by hand '' its a different thing and pre-industrial craft .

Trade guns are easier to build than a long rifle and are more forgiving . I would screw mount the butt plate ,many originals were done this way . Screw mounting is  easier than nailing the buttplate on .
Luckily screws are cheap and machine made now not and not hand filed .Maybe I  had shoed horses part time I might feel differently.
 
Anyway I seem to learn the hard way so save yourself the grief and learn from my mistakes .

I will note I have built a number of guns from inexpensive precarved stocks when I started  and from- the -blank builds but have no direct with Mr Clay Smiths kits . But I started on a budget a long time ago before some of the better stock shaping machinery was available.Even so I personally insist on inletting the lock myself . 


Best regards Stuart


 
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 03:57:15 AM by stuart cee dub »

Offline B.Habermehl

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Re: Trade Gun Build Questions
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2018, 04:50:06 AM »
The type G trade gun I own, I built from a blank with the barrel channel and ram rod groove machined and drilled. I fortunately had a afternoon studying Reeves Goerings gun and took patterns and a precise sillowhet of the gun. Plus pictures. Besides walnut, beech is also correct. Maple if plain enough isn't that far off. The gun really was not that hard to stock. It must be reall petite to be correct. At or under 7 lbs complete. BJH
BJH

Yung_flint

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Re: Trade Gun Build Questions
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2018, 06:59:49 PM »
Wow thanks for all the pointers. Really appreciate it.