hawken tang to breech plug fit

[adam h]

I am trying to fit my tang to my breech plug and no matter how I file I cannot get a goood fit.
i have a gap im using prusssian blue but now my gap is larger ang the tang is sloppy. my gap
wasat .0015 and now its .010 ithink i need to build the back of the plug up with a mig welder
or do i need to order new parts. any suggestions.thanks.
Adam

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Fitting the plug to the standing breech tang is a delicate thing.  Once the initial filing has removed the cast finish, I use scrapers made from files to take away metal for a perfect fit.  Filing flat enough to fit those parts is very very difficult.  I'll take a photo of the two or three scrapers I made for this job and post them, if that might help.
If you have filed a lot off the sides, top and bottom of the rectangular hook, you may need to build it back up with weld.  Most of the fitting of these two parts seems to me to be on the angle bottom flat of the breech hook.  But interference in the corners can throw you too.  I use a felt pen for transfer ink.  If it rubs off, it is the corresponding place on the other part that needs attention.  On many of those castings, getting a tight fit all the way across and at the top and bottom, at the same time, is key.  The stress direction is away from each other in line with the bore.  If there is any play or movement, it's not done.

[jerrywh]

 First you need to tighten that plug to tang some. That can sometimes be done by penning the hook a little with hammer and punches. Then you can lightly peen around the top of the barrel and hook breech. That will close the gap. Then finish by draw filing the top flat and the hook together. That is what I have done at times.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I tool some pictures of the scrapers I use for fitting a hooked breech to a tang.  Remember that very little metal must be removed, more on some sets than on others.  But in all cases, it is a small amount.
these scrapers are ground from two kinds of files:  the first, a triangular file, and the second, a flat bottoms file with angled top.  The teeth are ground off on a belt grinder being careful not to interfere with the temper of the steel.  the three sided file then gets a point ground on it, and sharpened.  The flat bottomed one has the bottom and the side s smoothed, and a short heel ground on the bottom.  These work slick, with full control using short powerful strokes and both hands up close to the work.  A lot of steel can be removed quickly, so scrape little, and check often.









All bevels are 60 degrees.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Here's another application of the flat scraper:  this one on e brass patch box.  Metal comes away a lot faster than filing.  This is one of Chambers' patch box kits...they are heavy brass and lovely to work with.

[adam h]

well I took way to much off trying to use a file .those scrapers look like they work slick
I never even thought of a scraper on metal now i'm in the process of starting over on a breech plug and tang
im also gonna use a felt tip marker.thanks for the photos

[Bob Roller]

well I took way to much off trying to use a file .those scrapers look like they work slick
I never even thought of a scraper on metal now i'm in the process of starting over on a breech plug and tang
im also gonna use a felt tip marker.thanks for the photos

MOST of the castings I have seen for hook breeches are of mediocre quality and
 require careful study to see if they are even usable.The best I have seen were
for the Don Brown Alex Henry now being produced by Rod England.It has set the
standard for the rest to copy.
I remember Don Brown telling me that that breech had to be RIGHT and it took
a lot of effort to get it to and acceptable point.Keep in mind that the plug is the
last thing between your eyes and disaster.
The Hawken Shop under the ownership of Art Ressel hadall of his Hawken plugs
marked and X rayed and any flaws were culled out and recycled (melted).
I have an original from the Gemmer estate Art gave me 40 or so years ago.
It is fair quality but nothing approaching a fine English rifle of the same period.

Bob Roller

[jerrywh]

 Bob.
   I knew Don Brown and Robert evens a good friend of mine and a prolific Engraver owns one of hie first rifles. They were unmatched for quality.  Where did you meet Don brown?

[bgf]

If I remember correctly, the main problem with the one I had was that the mortice in the standing breech was too thick and the hook on the tenon as well, so that the two didn't lock together perfectly as shipped.  At least that's what I remember spending the most time fitting.  I put a second barrel with identical hooked breech into the original standing breech later and it just needed mostly minor filing on the tenon to mate up well as the work on the standing breech was already done.  Probably not what is going on for you, but thought it might help.  I remember that between fitting the patent breech with two mating surfaces and then the breech to the tang I developed a lot of patience and a good vocabulary .

On other thing I noticed about the tangs I have is that they are offset/cast noticeably though I can't remember which way (ie on or off).  Not a problem for me as I cut them into spearpoints (was not building a Hawken) but it might be a problem if using the full tang as intended.

[redheart]

Thank you all very kindly for the great advice. Since the Carson Hawken was case hardened it looks like once they had it fitted they perhaps didn't want it to loosen up easily from recoil and taking the barrel in and out for cleaning. The Nez Perce Hawken also appears to have a case hardened slanted hooked breech since the surface patina is far less on the breech plug than the barrel patina. I have no idea if this was standard procedure for hooked breeches, but it sure seems like a great way to do it. Would love to hear comments on this since as far as knowledge I'm not even in the same room with you guys.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Most of the iron parts on firearms of this era were case hardened.  This does a number of things, chief among them, resistance to wear, and to corrosion.

Once you have fitted the tang to the hook, soft solder them together, turn the barrel up-side-down and sight down the length from the muzzle.  This will show you whether the tang is in line with the bore...likely it is not, and will need to be bent to align it.  Three pins in your vise will apply pressure to the spot needing straightening/aligning.  Once that is done, you can inlet tang, the barrel already having been inlet, with confidence that it will lay along the centre line of the wood.  Without this process, you're guessing, likely wrongly.

[redheart]

Most of the iron parts on firearms of this era were case hardened.  This does a number of things, chief among them, resistance to wear, and to corrosion.

Once you have fitted the tang to the hook, soft solder them together, turn the barrel up-side-down and sight down the length from the muzzle.  This will show you whether the tang is in line with the bore...likely it is not, and will need to be bent to align it.  Three pins in your vise will apply pressure to the spot needing straightening/aligning.  Once that is done, you can inlet tang, the barrel already having been inlet, with confidence that it will lay along the centre line of the wood.  Without this process, you're guessing, likely wrongly.

Taylor,
Can you case harden these bearing surfaces with a torch and casenit or are you likely to warp the tang?

[Bob Roller]

Bob.
   I knew Don Brown and Robert evens a good friend of mine and a prolific Engraver owns one of hie first rifles. They were unmatched for quality.  Where did you meet Don brown?

Jerrywh,
Beginning in early 1987,February to be exact I became aware of Don Brown and the Alex Henry
project thanks to John Bivins and Muzzle Blasts.I bought a breech from him and a butt plate and
trigger guard for a straight grip sporting rifle and finally a semi finished straight grip stock.
Later that year the International Muzzle Loading Rifle shoot was held in Kitchener,Ontario and
Roger Weir and I went at the invitation of Ted Girodat,Canadian team captain and a superb rifle
maker.The day after we got to Ted and Donna's home we went to the airport in Toronto and picket
Don Brown and his rifles and then back to Kitchener.We were all guests of the Girodat's and their
hospitality was unmatched.
I had with me one of my copies of a 4 pin Stanton lock that was an exact copy of the original that
Lynton McKenzie loaned me  and showed it to Don.He was impressed but said he would not offer
them as an option to his customers but wanted one for a rifle he was making for himself.I turned
his order down then and there.At the range,the German team captain whose English was limited
ordered 3 Henry kits from Don and I used my own limited skill with the German language to help
him.The German insisted on the "Rollerschloss"(Roller lock)with the 3 kits.He grumbled about it
and got mad at me when I sent all 3 locks COD.At that time I was making a good living by NOT
making locks and was making bronze replacement bearings for long obsolete automobile transmissions
and easy to make bits and pieces for Duesenberg restorations which were also for a Canadian.
I told Don that ALL of these car parts went COD and I applied that to gun parts which are way more
labor intensive for less money.
Over the years until he passed I had some contact with him and after he passed I helped his widow with another 3 kit order
from Sweden whose owner also insisted on my Stanton copies or he'd cancel the order.
Thank you for the inquiry and the revivng of long dormant memories.

Bob Roller

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Sure, you can heat just the area that bears bright red and sprinkle case hardening compound on it, re-heat, and quench, but it'll be an inferior job.  Pack hardening is the answer.  Yes, you run the risk of warping the tang.  I've done several without issue, though.  Be sure to soak the parts in a toaster oven at 375 for at least an hour after hardening.

[Joe S.]

I sent all my iron parts out to be color case hardened for the full stock hawken I built.The folks at Wyoming armory did them,real great price,great turn around time and only minimal adjustment needed to fit parts back in their inletts.Tang,toe plate and a thimble had ever so slight warp.If your not into colors,steel wool.Parts are real pretty and hard.For what they charge you can't do em yourself that good.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Next time I pack harden parts, I'll finish the stock ready for stain, harden the parts, and then refit prior to staining and oiling.  I had to re-inlet my butt plate on my last effort on a Hawken.

[Joe S.]

Yup,Taylor,as we discussed I kinda went out of order,pretty much had my rifle for the most part finished.I would do the same,I got lucky and no major refit was needed.

[adam h]

I sent my breech plug and tang to don stith. turns out my breech plug was high in the center and as I filed I was also filing off the outside as well hence the gap was not shrinking which I thought the tang was not going on far enough so I filed the hook thus causing the loose fit. It is usable but I may use it as a practice piece and order new parts. I am not using
Prussian blue im switching to a felt tip marker. I took to much off each time .  but I am not giving up.  adam