Author Topic: Anybody have an answer to who/what/when?  (Read 4743 times)


Offline James Rogers

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Re: Anybody have an answer to who/what/when?
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2009, 07:54:32 PM »
Govers was a London gunmaker but the information I have shows him in the very late 18th century. This pistol appears to have third quarter 18th century styling characteristics.
Does it have maker's mark on the barrel with the proof and view?

Offline JV Puleo

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Re: Anybody have an answer to who/what/when?
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2009, 09:18:35 PM »
I think its Jover, not Gover. Very good middle to upper level London maker. He seems to have had a following among army officers because we see real fuzees by him as well as very nice holster pistols. This is a good quality holster pistol probably around 1780. In other words, a pistol that really is of Revolutonary War vintage (as opposed to the 9 out of 10 that make that claim and are too late). The senior Jover had premises in Oxford Street from 1777. We need to see the marks on the top/left side of the breech to tell much more. They are likely London proofs, which is good, although they could be Ordnance private proofs. I don't know off the top of my head if he was a member of the Gunmakers company.

Offline James Rogers

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Re: Anybody have an answer to who/what/when?
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2009, 09:53:07 PM »
I have never seen a Jover guns with an "s" but that would explain things.
I had found ..
Govers- London 1793-1800
Jover- London1775-1800
Jover, William 1750-1775
Jover, W I & Belton -London 1786-1825

JV Puleo, for those of us who want to learn more, what specific features of this gun determine the estimated 1780 date you give it? From what little knowledge in this area that  I have, I see a gun that could be 15 years earlier.

Thanks,
James

Offline Dan

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Re: Anybody have an answer to who/what/when?
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2009, 10:30:48 PM »
Thanks guys.  It is a Govers, the rest was a mystery. Will see if we can get a picture of the proof marks and so forth.

Dan

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Anybody have an answer to who/what/when?
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2009, 10:34:21 PM »
Can't make out the name, but looks like a 1760 - 1770 pistol to me. OOppps, he posted while I posted....must have been using up some old parts if that pistol was made in the last 1/4 of the 18th century.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2009, 10:36:02 PM by Mike Brooks »
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Offline Dan

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Re: Anybody have an answer to who/what/when?
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2009, 11:20:04 PM »
The barrel is marked "Dublin" near the lock on the off side, for what it's worth.

Not clearly visible but that is what it has:


Offline James Rogers

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Re: Anybody have an answer to who/what/when?
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2009, 02:05:25 AM »
Can't make out the name, but looks like a 1760 - 1770 pistol to me. OOppps, he posted while I posted....must have been using up some old parts if that pistol was made in the last 1/4 of the 18th century.

Yeah, check out that barouque thumbpiece from the last post. I have only seen that on guns mainly from the 1725-1745 time frame.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2009, 02:09:35 AM by Capt. Jas. »

Offline James Rogers

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Re: Anybody have an answer to who/what/when?
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2009, 02:16:24 AM »
This piece must be by Govers of Dublin. There is a Queen Anne pistol by him in an old 1950s Robert Abels catalog and it's marked Dblin as well.

Offline JV Puleo

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Re: Anybody have an answer to who/what/when?
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2009, 02:40:55 AM »
I jumped to the conclusion it was a London gun... obviously a mistake if its from Dublin (which wasn't mentioned in the original post.) If it is Govers and its a Dublin gun, then my comments are indeed wrong.

As to the mounts...I hadn't seen the top view but I still think they could be as late as the l 70s though I agree they would have been old fashioned by then. I have a primary source reference to Jover as a witness in a trial at the Old Bailey in 1770. This is five years earlier than the entry in Blackmore. I think that the elder Jover was born around 1737. The son, William Jnr, was born in 1762 so he would have been about 22 when he went into partnership with his father in 1784. Its impossible to tell how long William Sr. had been in business but it could certainly be as early as 1765.

Jover almost certainly started earlier than the London directory listings suggest but if most of his work was for the trade, or he had a loyal following, he may not have bothered with directory listing (which often had to be paid for). He probably died around 1801/02 since his wife, Mary, is listed as a gunmaker from 05 to 08. Apparently he wasn't a member of the gunmakers company so there is no apprenticeship record for him. In fact, it looks as if he came from West Bromwich, one of the black country gunmaking towns on the outskirts of Birmingham which would explain the lack of a London apprenticeship record.

I had a good friend who was particularly fond of this maker and had half a dozen of his pistols, including a nice cased pair that could easily be a very early pair of dueling pistols although in form they don't look like conventional duelers. Jover's early guns were very conservative in style which is certainly understandable if he learned the trade in a provincial center and can easily be taken as older than they probably are.

However...please take all this guardedly. Much of it comes from a work-in-progress and I would not be surprised to have to change my findings as new information surfaces.

James... what source are you using for the dates? I am going by Blackmore and other primary documents. I have reservations about some dates in many of the standard sources. I've been doing a little side study on where certain dates that are widely accepted come from and I've found that many have simply been repeated time and again from very early works where the authors simply guessed...for instance, I doubt the William Jover Sr. could be as early as 1750 since he was probably about 13 at the time.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2009, 05:14:20 AM by JV Puleo »