Author Topic: Testing new barrels????  (Read 1578 times)

Offline lost arrow 801

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Testing new barrels????
« on: September 13, 2018, 05:54:16 PM »
Hello all
I was wondering  if you more experienced gun builders use double loads to test a completed gun? Or how youngest a new barrel for safety?

Offline rsells

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Re: Testing new barrels????
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2018, 06:03:31 PM »
I test each barrel before I sight in a new rifle going to a customer.  My norm is to use a double volume of powder to proof the barrel assembly, clean the bore, and then sight the rifle in with a charge that is slightly more than what I normally see as the most accurate charge for the caliber.  I leave the point of impact low, but on left and right.  This gets it in the box for the customer to work up the most accurate load and then sight the rifle in for their sight picture and charge they have chosen.
                                                                                                                       Roger Sells

Offline flehto

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Re: Testing new barrels????
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2018, 07:05:57 PM »
I just "function fire" when the LR  is in the white w/ a heavy hunting load......Fred

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Testing new barrels????
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2018, 07:15:50 PM »
I do the same Fred, but leave it until the rifle is completely done.  Testing a rifle for live fire function and sighting it in are the simple rewards for me for pouring myself into a project for months on end.  I am likely naive but I trust all the many barrel makers to have created a viable safe barrel, so I just start off at the bench with the hunting load, then back it off and sight it in with what experience has shown me to be a reasonable load for target and trail shooting.  I am rarely disappointed or frustrated in finding the load it likes and usually file the sights pretty close during the build.  I often take Daryl along with me for a number of reasons, but he is a much better bench shooter than I, and it's fun to have company too.  Between the two of us, no time is wasted experimenting, and the process is always fulfilling.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline deepcreekdale

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Re: Testing new barrels????
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2018, 12:36:07 AM »
I just function test and sight it in as usual. The double load test firing is a holdover from the days of hand forged barrels. If you are using a Rice, Colerain, Green Mountain or other quality barrel and you have properly seated the breech plug, I do not feel there is a need to double charge it to test. I tend to use light loads anyway, my double loads are probably lighter than most peoples hunting loads. If you feel safer doing a double load test, have at it.

”Far and away the best prize that life has to offer is the chance to work hard at work worth doing.” Theodore Roosevelt

Offline lost arrow 801

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Re: Testing new barrels????
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2018, 09:21:14 AM »
Thanks guys.  It's a rice barrel and I don't really feel safe doing a double load. Any recommendations for where to start.

Rice .54 caliber 44inch swamped.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Testing new barrels????
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2018, 03:56:31 PM »
Hello all
I was wondering  if you more experienced gun builders use double loads to test a completed gun? Or how youngest a new barrel for safety?

I use a proof load table from W.W. Greener's "The Gun and Its Development" 1896 or I use double service load and 2 balls. Proof powder is always FFF.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Elnathan

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Re: Testing new barrels????
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2018, 04:33:33 PM »
Proofing was usually done with at least two loads, an initial overload followed by a smaller overcharge. Proofing is a trickier business than you might think, as you have to walk a fine line between ensuring that there are no flaws in the steel that will cause catastrophic failure without overstraining the steel and perhaps starting a crack that will cause failure down the road (the secondary proof used historically was to guard against that possibility). On top of that, the primary concern historically was to weed out any barrels with a bad weld, whereas with barrels made from modern steel bar the primary concern would be a flaw in the steel as it came from the foundry, such as a cluster of sulfide stringers or a bit of lead that wasn't distributed evenly throughout the steel. There has been quite a bit of discussion on the subject here over the years, if you want to do a search on barrel proofing.

I like the idea of proofing a barrel in the abstract, but I'm not convinced that I (or most people) are capable of doing it without running the risk of doing more harm than good or 2) that historical proof standards (and those still used in Europe) designed for welded-up barrels are the best means of testing modern barrels.

The US military still proofs its barrels, BTW. They use an overpressure cartridge delivering 70,000 psi  to test barrels designed for 55-60,000psi operating loads (5.56 NATO), followed by particle inspection. Since that standard has been designed with modern construction methods in mind, that might be a good place to start. The problems are  the difficulty of getting a particle inspection done and the difficulty of determining an adequate proof pressure for a given barrel wide variability of operating pressures in a muzzleloader.
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Testing new barrels????
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2018, 04:26:12 AM »
Proofing was usually done with at least two loads, an initial overload followed by a smaller overcharge. Proofing is a trickier business than you might think, as you have to walk a fine line between ensuring that there are no flaws in the steel that will cause catastrophic failure without overstraining the steel and perhaps starting a crack that will cause failure down the road (the secondary proof used historically was to guard against that possibility). On top of that, the primary concern historically was to weed out any barrels with a bad weld, whereas with barrels made from modern steel bar the primary concern would be a flaw in the steel as it came from the foundry, such as a cluster of sulfide stringers or a bit of lead that wasn't distributed evenly throughout the steel. There has been quite a bit of discussion on the subject here over the years, if you want to do a search on barrel proofing.

I like the idea of proofing a barrel in the abstract, but I'm not convinced that I (or most people) are capable of doing it without running the risk of doing more harm than good or 2) that historical proof standards (and those still used in Europe) designed for welded-up barrels are the best means of testing modern barrels.

The US military still proofs its barrels, BTW. They use an overpressure cartridge delivering 70,000 psi  to test barrels designed for 55-60,000psi operating loads (5.56 NATO), followed by particle inspection. Since that standard has been designed with modern construction methods in mind, that might be a good place to start. The problems are  the difficulty of getting a particle inspection done and the difficulty of determining an adequate proof pressure for a given barrel wide variability of operating pressures in a muzzleloader.
First if you make the gun you are part of the liability chain. I.E. Defendent in the lawsuit.
Example, I KNOW that an 1137 GB (the "GB" is key) quality barrel in 45 caliber 1" at the breech will stand 50000 PSI with out ANY issues at all. HP White Laboratory did the test on a 45-70 Shiloh Sharps.  Now its virtually impossible to even reach this with BP that would be used for propellant and a couple of round balls it should not be possible to "crack", bulge or otherwise harm a barrel when the pressure is unlikely to greatly exceed 1/2 this pressure... Remembering that the proof load for the Springfirld Rifle Musket barrels (best iron not steel) was 280 gr of Musket powder and a 500 gr Minie spaced 2" off the powder....
Using a proof load similar to the British Proof House in the 19th c should be perfectly acceptable. However, by 1896 the proof for rifled arms was apparently for arms shooting heavier projectiles than the RB. If we use the "all small arms" (except rifles and a few others) table we find a proof for a 37 bore (.501) to be 191 grains of powder and  172 grain projectile. The powder charge is about what I would proof a 50 cal rifle with but I use 2 patched  balls or 360 +- grains for the projectiles. The "Rifled Arms" table shows a proof of 205 grains of powder and  715 gr bullet .480 in diameter. Also not that the powder used from proof was finer grained than the service load. I consider this to be a little too much lead for a RB rifle.
The ONLY defense that the barrel maker and gun maker have in the US is the handloader defense. Everyone seems to assume or believe it seems (wrongly in many cases) that the ML shooter is always at fault.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Testing new barrels????
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2018, 06:24:48 PM »
I always did the same as Dpharris,  Double powder double patched ball and I did it twice. Your not going to blow up a rice barrel even with a tripple load.
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