Southern Mountain Relic

[vtbuck223]

Here is an old relic. Don't see too many in these parts...but I immediately knew what it was when I saw it by having previously read the posts on this site. I know there are a few here who will appreciate it even as it is....
 

[Tanselman]

Is there any trace of initials, or name, on the top barrel flat halfway behind the rear site mortise? The stock and tang could be from a southeastern KY gun, made well down into the hill country. While not a Pleasant Wilson relic, both the tang and cheekpiece with flattened lower edge are similar to his work, and he worked in Clay County, KY. Shelby Gallien

[Cades Cove Fiddler]

  ... What area was this found in,... ... yes, look for  name/initials on top of barrel,... the "doll head" feature on the barrel tang makes me think NC mountains,... more pictures, please,... heel of butt-plate, toe-plate, overhead view of barrel tang,  can you tell if wood is maple or black walnut,..?? ... great find,.. !!!  ...thanx for posting,..

[Levy]

It looks like there's a hole there for a pinned on trigger guard?
James Levy

[somehippy]

I like er nice buttplate and architecture.  If only that thing could talk...

[vtbuck223]

Thanks all for your responses...I knew you would appreciate it even in the rough. I picked it up at a flea market in Maine this past weekend. I don't see a signature on the barrel. I think it is walnut. I will try to get some pics tomorrow of the butt and the trigger area.

[scottmc]

It's definitely a beater but the guy who built it had an eye for architecture.  The lines on the buttstock are well done and thought out.  I like it!

[Dobyns]

It doesn't appear to be walnut.  It seems like a much lighter wood covered in an opaque stain or paint.

[bgf]

Very well shaped and good architecture from what I can tell.  Mountain rifle, likely southern, is about as exact as I can get based on what's there, but there's a few clues that might narrow it a little more like what CCF and Tanselman said. 

Two holes for lock nails doesn't guarantee it started out Flint, but it makes that worth considering.  To me the styling (especially the lower, softer nosed comb) looks 1820-30s more than later, but I could be wrong, and some places older fashions persist longer than others.  Just observations for the discussion, not an expert opinion.

[Cades Cove Fiddler]

  ... I'm always intrigued by these old "relics", and appreciate their history as much as a well preserved old rifle,... just to add a thought as to origin, I will call North Carolina Mountain region, most likely Henderson County,... marker for me is the tang on the breech-plug,... this style was used mostly in that area,.. I've never seen this style on a Tennessee rifle... all Tennessee that I've seen end in a round shape,... and sometimes with an extension that goes up-and-over the comb of the stock,... Dennis G. calls  the style a "doll's head" for the long round (pointed oval) shape,...photos are a "doll head" shape on one of Dennis' rifles (NC) and a round ending (TN) on one of my original TN rifles ... Hope Dennis will comment his thoughts,... great, interesting "relic",... !!!! .... regards,... Cades Cove Fiddler .... 

[mountainman70]

Mornin y'all !! Gotta make ya wonder just how many of these ol fellers are hanging over the mantle at various Cracker Barrels? .I look at every one I see in the diferent ones I have been in in my many travels. Mostly ol double barl's, evre now and then I would see one of these. Say bro Dana, how ye be? Dave

[vtbuck223]

It looks like there's a hole there for a pinned on trigger guard?
James Levy

James...that appears to just be a hole in the stock...not sure from what...the trigger guard was apparently held on by 2 wood screws  fore and aft.

CC Fiddler...really interesting about the "doll face" and "lollipop" tang and that such a small feature could delineate the difference between a TN and NC rifle.

[Dennis Glazener]

... I'm always intrigued by these old "relics", and appreciate their history as much as a well preserved old rifle,... just to add a thought as to origin, I will call North Carolina Mountain region, most likely Henderson County,... marker for me is the tang on the breech-plug,... this style was used mostly in that area,.. I've never seen this style on a Tennessee rifle... all Tennessee that I've seen end in a round shape,... and sometimes with an extension that goes up-and-over the comb of the stock,... Dennis G. calls  the style a "doll's head" for the long round (pointed oval) shape,...photos are a "doll head" shape on one of Dennis' rifles (NC) and a round ending (TN) on one of my original TN rifles ... Hope Dennis will comment his thoughts,... great, interesting "relic",... !!!! .... regards,... Cades Cove Fiddler .... 

The top photo is a tang on a Harvey Gillespie rifle probably made while he was still in Mills River, Henderson County NC. He married Sarah Hooper in 1852 and moved to Jackson County NC then later returned to Mills River in 1868. I have seen this style tang of a couple different Gillespie's. Dana is right I call and have heard others call it a Doll's head tang but also use that same term for one with a round head on it. Also have heard them called "lollipop" tangs.

Below is another similiar tang this one is on an unsigned Gillespie that I suspect was made by one of Mathew Gillespie's brothers either William or John Harvey Gillespie of East Fork NC whick is in today's Transylvania County but prior to the Civil War was Henderson County NC. Very similiar to the relic rifle shown.

[Cades Cove Fiddler]

  ... thanx for comments, Dennis,... I never realized this unique difference until a few tears ago when you showed me,.. seems to be used only in that region of the NC mountains,... I have never seen a known Tennessee made rifle that has this pointed oval type feature,... regards,... CCF,.......

[galudwig]

Just an FYI. While at the 2015 TN Rifle Show at the Museum of Appalachia and later that same year at the CLA in Lexington, I had the opportunity to examine and take bunches of pictures of a rifle made by Abram Grimsley. According to Jerry Nobles book, Abram was a gunsmith in Livinston, Tennessee in the 1840's. Kind of difficult to tell for sure (due to the oversized head on the replacement screw), but the tang end on that rifle is real similar to that of the relic and the Gilliespies. Looks to me as if the left side of the extension is missing. The section of tang between the breech and "step" is also slightly flared like the round-end picture from Dennis.
 

[bgf]

Galudwig,
That's a great find! 

[vtbuck223]

Thanks...this is all pretty interesting stuff....and beyond me to even comment on other than to say thanks for putting it all out there.
 
The barrel on this rifle is pretty slender and it appears to me that it might have been hand forged...as I can see some hammer marks...but how would I tell otherwise?  Was this the common practice in this region throughout the 19th century or would a hand forged barrel help date or place it?

Also...I wondered if the somewhat "crude" inlays (which I actually think are pretty cool) are common and if that would have been by the maker or a subsequent owner?